Recommend me some airplanes

[jonjuan]

He might also care about service and support. Years of product surveys have shown LRjet to struggle versus Citation, for example. Why not spend a day doing a factory tour at each in Wichita? He (and you) may really learn a lot of things from each company beyond the power point comparison. For such a commitment, it may be worth it. I saw a cj4 a few weeks ago and thought at first it was a 45. It looked like a Lr/Cj offspring with it's wing sweep and heated windows.
http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-reports/jets/all-grown-cessna-cj4

 

[rjacobs]

He might also care about service and support. Years of product surveys have shown LRjet to struggle versus Citation, for example. Why not spend a day doing a factory tour at each in Wichita? He (and you) may really learn a lot of things from each company beyond the power point comparison. For such a commitment, it may be worth it. I saw a cj4 a few weeks ago and thought at first it was a 45. It looked like a Lr/Cj offspring with it's wing sweep and heated windows.
http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-reports/jets/all-grown-cessna-cj4

Will cessna and learjet do factory tours even if you are buying used airplanes? I have been on the Cessna tour years ago when I was in college, but it really wasnt a "buy our airplane" type of a tour.

I think a CJ4 would be an awesome airplane and probably the best for the mission, but 9 million+ is going to be to much for this first time airplane owner. Hes going to say "what does a 9 million CJ4 give me that a 4 million Lear 45 doesnt". I will say MX costs. He will say 5 million buys a lot of mx. Same with looking at a CJ3 vs. the lear 45. What does it give me over the other and vice versa.

 

[rjacobs]

The CJ3 with full tanks looks like I can only take ~370lbs(thats assuming 2 crew) of payload. Does that number sound right to you guys that fly them or did I screw up my math?

I am looking at needing around 1000lb payload(4 200lb pax plus baggage with 2 pilots figured in to the BOW) with enough gas to make the west coast non-stop.

That takes a CJ3 down to roughly 4000lbs/600 gallons of gas. Fltplan.com shows with a 75kt headwind(just throwing it out there) it will take 4:25 to get there. Using 600 gallons/140 per hour=4:18 roughly in gas on board. So to me that says, even a CJ3 wont make it most of the time with the load I need to carry. The MATOW is whats killing the CJ3 compared to the LR45.

 

[jonjuan]

Will cessna and learjet do factory tours even if you are buying used airplanes? I have been on the Cessna tour years ago when I was in college, but it really wasnt a "buy our airplane" type of a tour.

I think a CJ4 would be an awesome airplane and probably the best for the mission, but 9 million+ is going to be to much for this first time airplane owner. Hes going to say "what does a 9 million CJ4 give me that a 4 million Lear 45 doesnt". I will say MX costs. He will say 5 million buys a lot of mx. Same with looking at a CJ3 vs. the lear 45. What does it give me over the other and vice versa.

Understand about new versus used. However, if he has the need, one advantage of new vs. used is this years bonus depreciation for new assets. He would be able to depreciate 100% the cost in year one. traditionally it's only 20%.

 

[rjacobs]

Understand about new versus used. However, if he has the need, one advantage of new vs. used is this years bonus depreciation for new assets. He would be able to depreciate 100% the cost in year one. traditionally it's only 20%.

He is a tax/financial guy. As far as I understand it, he wants to spread the depreciation out over at least the 5 year minimum if not longer, although I havent talked with him about this again except for our initial meeting.

 

[BoilerUP]

CJ3 will only burn 800lb/120gph at altitude...probably a bit less. Wrong-way FL450 going westbound will save roughly 75-100pph over FL430.

We've had our CJ2+ on a 4+13 segment, and we landed with over 900lbs of fuel, and the plane only holds 3960lbs.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[rjacobs]

CJ3 will only burn 800lb/120gph at altitude...probably a bit less. Wrong-way FL450 going westbound will save roughly 75-100pph over FL430.

We've had our CJ2+ on a 4+13 segment, and we landed with over 900lbs of fuel, and the plane only holds 3960lbs.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

So you were only burning like 110gph?

So maybe a 130lb average for the CJ3 would be a better number to use than 140? That gives me about 4:40 to tanks dry with the payload I am estimating for.

 

[BoilerUP]

As an example, I'm showing our CJ2+ from CPS-SJC to be 4+39 and 3600lb block fuel burn...cruising at FL450 with 46kt average headwind. Our Fltplan.com profile is a little conservative on fuel burns, so we'd probably be closer to 3400lb burn...but 600lb is just 45min legal IFR reserves and I wouldn't plan to land that short on fuel.

If you were to fly at a constant long-range speed of 0.68M (vs. the 0.737M max), you'd probably shave another 100-150lbs off that.

Either way, its highly doubtful the 2+ could make St. Louis-Bay Area westbound even under the best circumstances, and the CJ3 would be limited doing so against stiff winds (and even more so with your payload).

If your boss HAS to go west-coast nonstop, the LR45 is definitely your airplane...if he can live with 2x monthly westbound tech stops the CJ series will fit the rest mission profile more efficiently.

 

[jonjuan]

If your boss HAS to go west-coast nonstop, the LR45 is definitely your airplane...if he can live with 2x monthly westbound tech stops the CJ series will fit the rest mission profile more efficiently.

But the cj4 has more range than the 45, unless you're talking new vs. used.

 

[BoilerUP]

But the cj4 has more range than the 45, unless you're talking new vs. used.

OP said he wants to keep the budget under $5M...that immediately negates the CJ4 (which is a great aircraft) and you can't touch a new CJ2+ for less than $6.5M.

Used, you could easily find an early serial LR45 or CJ3 in the $4-5M range.