Recommend me some airplanes

[CRAZY LEGS]

Got the go-ahead from a guy I am working with on getting him into an airplane of some kind. Budget is up in the air, but I know the lower the better. DOC is also a high priority. Speed is not of the greatest concern.

Mission is varied with a bunch of ~250 mile destinations, a few 750-1000 mile trips and a few ~1500 mile trips. Aircraft will be based in the STL area and the longer trips are out to the LAX/SFO/SEA area's.

Looking to go to the west coast about 2x a month(which probably means more than that) so a fuel stop 2x+ a month is going to get old.

Usually will be between 1 and 4 pax plus crew.

Aircraft I have been considering:
CJ3
CJ4
Citation Excel
Citation XLS
EMB Phenom 300
LJ45

Right now I am really liking the LJ45 for its price to performance ratio.

45- goes higher and faster than all of the above. It is also much more efficient than the Excel or XLS.
The 45 has low approach speeds, dual tires, great carbon brakes, and has the most systems redundancy of any of these airplanes by far.

 

[Hawker800]

Does he want a standup cabin or does this matter? That was a major consideration for my boss thus a Hawker 800. I can usually stay between 1600 and 1800lbs per hour Florida to Montana on a regular basis. Sometimes a little better. Nonstop 99% of the time. 100% back home. It is as you said alot of machine for a first time owner but a very comfortable aircraft.

 

[rjacobs]

Does he want a standup cabin or does this matter? That was a major consideration for my boss thus a Hawker 800. I can usually stay between 1600 and 1800lbs per hour Florida to Montana on a regular basis. Sometimes a little better. Nonstop 99% of the time. 100% back home. It is as you said alot of machine for a first time owner but a very comfortable aircraft.

dont think it matters on the standup cabin, but 250gph is WAY to much fuel burn when a LR45 is around 180-190 and CJ2/3 is like 140-150.

 

[BoilerUP]

dont think it matters on the standup cabin, but 250gph is WAY to much fuel burn when a LR45 is around 180-190 and CJ2/3 is like 140-150.

There's more that goes into DOC than just fuel (as I'm sure you know); the Feb 2011 issue of Business & Commercial Aviation has a decent writeup on the LR45 inside the back cover and it says LR45 operators report the airplane needs "extra maintenance" beyond its 300hr intervals. That's definitely something to keep in mind looking at an older airframe.

Same article also says roughly 1800pph first hour and 1200pph subsequent hours for 0.80M cruise; for comparison's sake, I plan 1100/800/750/750 in the CJ2+ and at FL450 it will do 0.737M (its MMo, roughly 402kts) and burn 730pph; the CJ3 is the same speed and roughly 780pph.

Again, don't want to sound like a CJ fanboy but its reading like your mind is made up on the LR45 and unless the moneyman has dictated nonstop to the west coast I think it'd be worthwhile to at least compare the 2+/3 to the LR45 in your presentation.

 

[rjacobs]

There's more that goes into DOC than just fuel (as I'm sure you know); the Feb 2011 issue of Business & Commercial Aviation has a decent writeup on the LR45 inside the back cover and it says LR45 operators report the airplane needs "extra maintenance" beyond its 300hr intervals. That's definitely something to keep in mind looking at an older airframe.

Same article also says roughly 1800pph first hour and 1200pph subsequent hours for 0.80M cruise; for comparison's sake, I plan 1100/800/750/750 in the CJ2+ and at FL450 it will do 0.737M (its MMo, roughly 402kts) and burn 730pph; the CJ3 is the same speed and roughly 780pph.

Again, don't want to sound like a CJ fanboy but its reading like your mind is made up on the LR45 and unless the moneyman has dictated nonstop to the west coast I think it'd be worthwhile to at least compare the 2+/3 to the LR45 in your presentation.

I definitely have the 2+ and 3 in my presentation for the guy(along with KingAir 90 and 200/250 and both Emb Phenom's-although I think I may remove them since they arent a proven design yet and the interiors leave a lot to be desired). I think the 3 would work for us due to non-stop to the west coast capability. I think the 2+ would also work, but with a fuel stop on the way out every time, and as long as the guy understands that it would be a fantastic airplane. I would rather have a 3 over a 2+ especially because you arent talking much money difference. I would really like a 4, but I think they are getting a little pricey. Payload carrying in any of them with full fuel(which I will most likely need to carry to make the west coast) is a concern in the 2+/3. I am basing my presentation on carrying 4+2 crew as that seems to be what he says a fairly common pax load would be(at least for the longer flights where it would be a concern). Short flights would be 1-2 pax+2 crew so no concern over payload/fuel on them.

Then I keep coming back to the Lear45 overall package. DOC is a bit higher, but its also quite a bit faster which negates most of the DOC increase. Acquisition cost is also on par with the CJ2+/3 and for the cost of a 3 I can dang near get into a 45XR. There are some straight 45's on the market in the 3.5-4.5 range. And with the 45 I never have to be concerned about range vs. payload.

 

[jonjuan]

He might also care about service and support. Years of product surveys have shown LRjet to struggle versus Citation, for example. Why not spend a day doing a factory tour at each in Wichita? He (and you) may really learn a lot of things from each company beyond the power point comparison. For such a commitment, it may be worth it. I saw a cj4 a few weeks ago and thought at first it was a 45. It looked like a Lr/Cj offspring with it's wing sweep and heated windows.
http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-reports/jets/all-grown-cessna-cj4

 

[rjacobs]

He might also care about service and support. Years of product surveys have shown LRjet to struggle versus Citation, for example. Why not spend a day doing a factory tour at each in Wichita? He (and you) may really learn a lot of things from each company beyond the power point comparison. For such a commitment, it may be worth it. I saw a cj4 a few weeks ago and thought at first it was a 45. It looked like a Lr/Cj offspring with it's wing sweep and heated windows.
http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-reports/jets/all-grown-cessna-cj4

Will cessna and learjet do factory tours even if you are buying used airplanes? I have been on the Cessna tour years ago when I was in college, but it really wasnt a "buy our airplane" type of a tour.

I think a CJ4 would be an awesome airplane and probably the best for the mission, but 9 million+ is going to be to much for this first time airplane owner. Hes going to say "what does a 9 million CJ4 give me that a 4 million Lear 45 doesnt". I will say MX costs. He will say 5 million buys a lot of mx. Same with looking at a CJ3 vs. the lear 45. What does it give me over the other and vice versa.

 

[rjacobs]

The CJ3 with full tanks looks like I can only take ~370lbs(thats assuming 2 crew) of payload. Does that number sound right to you guys that fly them or did I screw up my math?

I am looking at needing around 1000lb payload(4 200lb pax plus baggage with 2 pilots figured in to the BOW) with enough gas to make the west coast non-stop.

That takes a CJ3 down to roughly 4000lbs/600 gallons of gas. Fltplan.com shows with a 75kt headwind(just throwing it out there) it will take 4:25 to get there. Using 600 gallons/140 per hour=4:18 roughly in gas on board. So to me that says, even a CJ3 wont make it most of the time with the load I need to carry. The MATOW is whats killing the CJ3 compared to the LR45.

 

[jonjuan]

Will cessna and learjet do factory tours even if you are buying used airplanes? I have been on the Cessna tour years ago when I was in college, but it really wasnt a "buy our airplane" type of a tour.

I think a CJ4 would be an awesome airplane and probably the best for the mission, but 9 million+ is going to be to much for this first time airplane owner. Hes going to say "what does a 9 million CJ4 give me that a 4 million Lear 45 doesnt". I will say MX costs. He will say 5 million buys a lot of mx. Same with looking at a CJ3 vs. the lear 45. What does it give me over the other and vice versa.

Understand about new versus used. However, if he has the need, one advantage of new vs. used is this years bonus depreciation for new assets. He would be able to depreciate 100% the cost in year one. traditionally it's only 20%.

 

[rjacobs]

Understand about new versus used. However, if he has the need, one advantage of new vs. used is this years bonus depreciation for new assets. He would be able to depreciate 100% the cost in year one. traditionally it's only 20%.

He is a tax/financial guy. As far as I understand it, he wants to spread the depreciation out over at least the 5 year minimum if not longer, although I havent talked with him about this again except for our initial meeting.

 

[BoilerUP]

CJ3 will only burn 800lb/120gph at altitude...probably a bit less. Wrong-way FL450 going westbound will save roughly 75-100pph over FL430.

We've had our CJ2+ on a 4+13 segment, and we landed with over 900lbs of fuel, and the plane only holds 3960lbs.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[rjacobs]

CJ3 will only burn 800lb/120gph at altitude...probably a bit less. Wrong-way FL450 going westbound will save roughly 75-100pph over FL430.

We've had our CJ2+ on a 4+13 segment, and we landed with over 900lbs of fuel, and the plane only holds 3960lbs.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

So you were only burning like 110gph?

So maybe a 130lb average for the CJ3 would be a better number to use than 140? That gives me about 4:40 to tanks dry with the payload I am estimating for.

 

[BoilerUP]

As an example, I'm showing our CJ2+ from CPS-SJC to be 4+39 and 3600lb block fuel burn...cruising at FL450 with 46kt average headwind. Our Fltplan.com profile is a little conservative on fuel burns, so we'd probably be closer to 3400lb burn...but 600lb is just 45min legal IFR reserves and I wouldn't plan to land that short on fuel.

If you were to fly at a constant long-range speed of 0.68M (vs. the 0.737M max), you'd probably shave another 100-150lbs off that.

Either way, its highly doubtful the 2+ could make St. Louis-Bay Area westbound even under the best circumstances, and the CJ3 would be limited doing so against stiff winds (and even more so with your payload).

If your boss HAS to go west-coast nonstop, the LR45 is definitely your airplane...if he can live with 2x monthly westbound tech stops the CJ series will fit the rest mission profile more efficiently.

 

[jonjuan]

If your boss HAS to go west-coast nonstop, the LR45 is definitely your airplane...if he can live with 2x monthly westbound tech stops the CJ series will fit the rest mission profile more efficiently.

But the cj4 has more range than the 45, unless you're talking new vs. used.

 

[BoilerUP]

But the cj4 has more range than the 45, unless you're talking new vs. used.

OP said he wants to keep the budget under $5M...that immediately negates the CJ4 (which is a great aircraft) and you can't touch a new CJ2+ for less than $6.5M.

Used, you could easily find an early serial LR45 or CJ3 in the $4-5M range.