Recalls at Delta?

[P38JLightning]

perspective

>>>>P38...you need to relax. Don't be making statements about another companies pilots (with regards to donations etc.) without having all of the facts! I donated and I work for ASA! Your comment that we just sat back and watched while the "almighty Comair pilots" did everything in their power makes me want to PUKE! By the way...NICE VOTE! Thanks for the Knife in the back....MY sticker is in the mail back to you!


Tomct,

I didn't say that all Comair pilots helped out more than all ASA pilots. I did say that some Comair pilots had crappy attitudes about it and their motivations were sinister at best. I criticized the MEC's stance on the whole issue too. I'm sure there were ASA pilots who bent over backwards to help. I'm just trying to dispell the notion that all ASA pilots "stepped up to the plate" and actively helped while all Comair pilots "blocked" their coming here. That notion is clearly proliferated by the General's broad brushed statements about how all ASA and CHQ pilots should be pre-hired at Delta while all Comair pilots should be blackballed, regardless of the individual's stance on this issue and regardless of how much the individual helped or didn't help.

As for the vote, sorry. I voted against the LOA. What more can I do? If you go on strike I'll donate twice the ammount of my pay this LOA gave up for as long as you're on strike. What else can I do?

So my "group" actively did more than the ASA and CHQ groups. Those places simply hired them according to their long standing policy and their pilots had nothing to do with it. Sure the ASA MEC may have been "consulted" as a heads up, but it was never their decision to make.

You know, I have heard this several times, but it is just plain wrong. I was approached by the Dallas LEC and talked with the ATL LEC and both said the same thing. They asked what my thoughts were if we were to hire furloughed Delta pilots. Both were getting opinions to pass on to management through our MEC. The way I took it is that we could have stopped the hiring if we felt that was something we wanted to do. We had no clue of what Comairs stance on this would be.

I can unequivocally remember the posts on this and other boards by Comair pilots that stated what the General is testifying to. I also remember when Comair guys came to ATL for their expansion. That was quite comical in that they would consistently demand that they get special treatment and would not be delayed because they were Comair. You should of heard the calls on the radio. They quickly learned that technique wasn't going to work.

On a side note: I am one of the few that doesn't think Comair guys screwed anyone with their recent vote. I think they made the right decision. We have to learn when to fight our battles. I also think that they may have helped us get a Comair +1 contract sooner than we could have done on our own. Time will tell.

That's not at all what happened here. We wer enever consulted, and our MEC (according to all sources available) were never approached by management of any kind. All there ever was was a meeting by the DAL MEC chair in which he came right out of the gate saying you will do this or there will be hell to pay. Our MEC took the bate, got emotional, and acted like babies right back at them. They should have taken the high road and didn't. We were never asked. As for the infamous "jumpseaters" there were probably the same num nutz who thought they were getting a seniority ratio when the PID was in full swing. Sorry about that too, but they are in the minority and I think you know that. (You have a few of them over there BTW).

General,

I don't have a problem with your proposed preferential hiring of ASA and CHQ other than its very thinly veiled threat to all Comair pilots. It seems getting "those who helped" hired takes a back seat for you to punishing every pilot on the list at Comair regardless of what that person did. Over.

 

[General Lee]

P38,


No threats here. I am not in charge of any future hiring at Delta. But, I will stress to those people that I hope they hire many ASA and CHQ pilots. But, my personal thoughts about Comair and their reluctance to help our guys in need made an impression on a lot of people over here, not only on me. We will see what happens....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[doh]

P38,

I have been on the other side of the rude jumpseater coin. You know, you get on to go home and you get the nth degree about how you're not worthy blah, blah, blah. My solution for you would be to get contacts at other places. Delta was never a first choice of mine because they fly too little long haul. Get over and meet some people at NWA. They have great unity and are really fun to fly with! Look at UPS and FEDEX. They have better job security and the pacific rim! Really, there are places where I think you can have a lot more fun. If you did get hired at Delta, I think you would always get sunshine blown up your skirt by some people when they found out you were Comair during this time period. Why go through the hassle? Like I said, go some place that flys the pacific! Trust me, it was the best time I ever had on layovers!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

P38,


No threats here. I am not in charge of any future hiring at Delta. But, I will stress to those people that I hope they hire many ASA and CHQ pilots. But, my personal thoughts about Comair and their reluctance to help our guys in need made an impression on a lot of people over here, not only on me. We will see what happens....


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I wouldn't be so hard on the Comair guys if I were you. FedEx, and others, refuse to interview furloughed DAL, AA, and NWA folks because they BURNED FedEx in the past. I am told this applies mostly to Delta guys. These people said yep I really want to be at FedEx and resign from XXX airline. Then, when the recalls came, the CP's called their furloughed folks and threw out the resignation letters. I can only imagine the CP's did it to save interview costs and didn't give a hoot who they pissed off. The improper actions of Delta guys near your seniority, Labor and management, are having a profound effect on Delta furloughees out there now. A bigger impact than the perceived inaction of Comair guys who have little to no say in hiring. Should you punish these Comair guys, Labor, for the actions of Comair management?

Should we treat you like a red-headed stepchild because of that or, since you are a Delta guy, the treacherous actions of your LABOR group should be forgotten even as you brag about who will feel your wrath when you can next exercise it??

I think the previous near sighted actions of Delta, AA, and NWA guys should be forgiven and forgotten. And the perceived actions/lack of action from Comair guys, especially since it not even in the same league, should also be forgiven.

I am literaly shocked that you could hold such a petty attitude toward Comair guys.

For your own good, get out of the cockpit (and off flightinfo.com) for awhile to get a different perspective. Comair may be a competitor for 90-100 seaters but they aren't guiltier than thou.




Regards,

FBJ

 

[doh]

Wow, I did not know that about the folks at big D. I guess they don't like being done unto as they have done. Still, I agree that we should have been more vocal about our MEC's gaff in meddleing in the airlines hiring.

 

[General Lee]

P38,

I have been on the other side of the rude jumpseater coin. You know, you get on to go home and you get the nth degree about how you're not worthy blah, blah, blah. My solution for you would be to get contacts at other places. Delta was never a first choice of mine because they fly too little long haul. Get over and meet some people at NWA. They have great unity and are really fun to fly with! Look at UPS and FEDEX. They have better job security and the pacific rim! Really, there are places where I think you can have a lot more fun. If you did get hired at Delta, I think you would always get sunshine blown up your skirt by some people when they found out you were Comair during this time period. Why go through the hassle? Like I said, go some place that flys the pacific! Trust me, it was the best time I ever had on layovers!

We don't fly enough long haul? Ok...... Oh, to the Pacific......Oh yeah, alright. Hey, I never said I was rude to any jumpseaters, I just asked them why Comair wasn't allowing our furloughs jobs, to which most stated it was too expensive FOR COMAIR. I just looked at them and said "Ok, riiiight" and then went on doing my job.




Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[doh]

General, don't get touchy. I just said, if Delta is not going to hire Comair pilots, it ain't the end of the world for those who want to move on. There are other places to go. And they csn have a pretty good time over there too. Delta has the highest percentage of domestic flying out there. So, if you go to Delta, you are not going to fly long haul as quick. My comment wasn't derogatory to Delta, I just am pointing out alrenatives for Comair guys, because I'm pretty sure you are blackballing, or doing your best to blackball them.

 

[General Lee]

General,

I wouldn't be so hard on the Comair guys if I were you. FedEx, and others, refuse to interview furloughed DAL, AA, and NWA folks because they BURNED FedEx in the past. I am told this applies mostly to Delta guys. These people said yep I really want to be at FedEx and resign from XXX airline. Then, when the recalls came, the CP's called their furloughed folks and threw out the resignation letters. I can only imagine the CP's did it to save interview costs and didn't give a hoot who they pissed off. The improper actions of Delta guys near your seniority, Labor and management, are having a profound effect on Delta furloughees out there now. A bigger impact than the perceived inaction of Comair guys who have little to no say in hiring. Should you punish these Comair guys, Labor, for the actions of Comair management?

Should we treat you like a red-headed stepchild because of that or, since you are a Delta guy, the treacherous actions of your LABOR group should be forgotten even as you brag about who will feel your wrath when you can next exercise it??

I think the previous near sighted actions of Delta, AA, and NWA guys should be forgiven and forgotten. And the perceived actions/lack of action from Comair guys, especially since it not even in the same league, should also be forgiven.

I am literaly shocked that you could hold such a petty attitude toward Comair guys.

For your own good, get out of the cockpit (and off flightinfo.com) for awhile to get a different perspective. Comair may be a competitor for 90-100 seaters but they aren't guiltier than thou.




Regards,

FBJ

FBJ,

Ok, what? There is a huge difference here that you are obviously not aware of. Delta owns two regional carriers, ASA and Comair. They both are equally owned by Delta. When we started having major problems, only ASA came through and allowed our people to have a job. Now, I know where you will go with this, but the problem that everyone has here is the Comair attitude during this. They were not very caring or did not vocalize any sympathy towards our furloughs and their plight. No, they continued to state that they couldn't change their rules, even though their sister airline easily did so. Instead of stating, "We are sorry and we will try to get this worked out" they stated "Nope, can't change the Comair 10 commandments...." That is the difference. Now, I am allowed to voice my opinion anytime, and I will voice it towards the hiring people when the time comes, stating that I hope they hire as many ASA and CHQ (the other group that helped without a carrot) pilots as possible.


Now, as far as your diatribe on how "we redheaded stepchildren" should be treated, I say "HUH?" What? Treachorus actions by our labor group? Huh? Please say again what our labor group did to affect our furloughs? We have just lost 1000 Captains since last May, and our union has been fighting to get our furloughs back, and they recently got approval for atleast 125 more recalls this year, after the company initially said NONE. We are limited by lack of sims, since losing 1000 Captains has thrown everything into disaray. We have so many people transitioning and upgrading to fill in those spots left by those Captains, it is a wonder that there is any room to add people back. Delta, as you know, doesn't have a lot of extra cash on hand to buy additional sim time, and we are doing what we can to turn this big boat around.

As far as you being SHOCKED at my attitude....Where were you when this was actually happening? You didn't see these arguments on this board? You didn't see that we, along with other ALPA carriers, helped Comair through their toughest time (the Strike) and when we had our toughest time they refused to help like their sister airline ASA and an outsider CHQ? A lot of our pilots were pi$$ed to say the least. If it were a mainline vs DCI deal, wouldn't ASA also have been not allowed to help? The problem here is their lack of vocalization----not their management's rules. They turned their heads---that is my opinion and many others out there.

And now you want me to get off flightinfo and get another perspective? Ok Dad. I see it all the time in the crew lounge. I know what most feel out there, I also have plenty of Delta friends that were furloughed and are back now, and they all feel the same. And, no way they(DCI) are getting anything larger than 70 seats for the Delta side, as stated by our VP of Flt ops in a recent (3 weeks ago) lounge show.

So, before you lambast me, you need to read up more on your Comair/ASA/Delta history. Quit preaching when you don't know the facts....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General, don't get touchy. I just said, if Delta is not going to hire Comair pilots, it ain't the end of the world for those who want to move on. There are other places to go. And they csn have a pretty good time over there too. Delta has the highest percentage of domestic flying out there. So, if you go to Delta, you are not going to fly long haul as quick. My comment wasn't derogatory to Delta, I just am pointing out alrenatives for Comair guys, because I'm pretty sure you are blackballing, or doing your best to blackball them.

Ok, maybe I got touchy. You made it sound like Delta didn't fly a lot of INTL, when we do. It actually doesn't take too long to get INTL flying--maybe the 5 or 6 year mark. I am sure NW is the same or longer. You can't start off that way unless you get on with ATLAS or POLAR. Even UPS and FEDEX usually start you at FE on something domestic. (I know UPS was offering INTL 757FO on this last bid, but I bet that was abnormal)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General:

I hope that Delta figures out how to make money again and gets the pilots recalled to enjoy a good career. Two thoughts that I would like to read your comments on:

(1) How is any airline going to make money with oil between $50 and $60 a barrell?

(2) Figure that Delta is positioning Comair for the 100 seat battle ground? Tossing the E Jet type into the heart of ALPA's representational battle seems like lighting a fuse. I know you think your scope has this wrapped up, but are you sure?

Rumors from a wide variety of sources are that the ASA MEC was playing footsie with the Delta MEC on a J4J type agreement while LOA 41 was being negotiated. Surely Delta management knows something of it and perhaps is angling to get the type going at a subsidiary with a less cozy relationship between labor leadership.

I would sure like to see ALPA provide some sort of leadership that would get your pilots off the street now and provide some future for the RJ's pilots as the type gets phased out in favor of larger, more efficient airplanes.

We can probably forget the days of $40 oil. As China's economy spins up demand is going to soar.

~~~^~~~

 

[doh]

General, I didn't know it was that quick to intl. I stand corrected. My post was just based on the assumption that Delta will not hire many, if any Comair pilots. I was pointing out to P38 that this does not mean the end of his world. There are lots of places he can hire on at that will not result in drudgery for the rest of his career. That's all I meant.

 

[FreightNazi]

(1) How is any airline going to make money with oil between $50 and $60 a barrell?

We can probably forget the days of $40 oil. As China's economy spins up demand is going to soar.

~~~^~~~

It's actually quite easy to make lots of money with oil that high....... at least for FedEx and UPS!!!!

FedEx has a 1.75% surcharge on ground shipments, UPS 2%. And on air shipments FedEx 8.5% and UPS 9.5%.

I'd venture to say that the surcharges more than cover the increase in the price of oil, so FedEx and UPS probably make even more money as the price of oil increases as they just simply increase the surcharge amount! Until the pax airlines do this they are screwed.

 

[General Lee]

General, I didn't know it was that quick to intl. I stand corrected. My post was just based on the assumption that Delta will not hire many, if any Comair pilots. I was pointing out to P38 that this does not mean the end of his world. There are lots of places he can hire on at that will not result in drudgery for the rest of his career. That's all I meant.

Doh,

I understand. And sure, he can try many other airlines. He can try Delta too. My whole deal here was to extol the ASA and CHQ guys for helping our furloughs and not voicing opposition or staying silent on the issue of helping them. It was appreciated by many. And yes, looking at the seniority list on the last large bid there were 5 year guys holding the INTL 767ER out of NYC. Not bad.


Bye bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General:

I hope that Delta figures out how to make money again and gets the pilots recalled to enjoy a good career. Two thoughts that I would like to read your comments on:

(1) How is any airline going to make money with oil between $50 and $60 a barrell?

(2) Figure that Delta is positioning Comair for the 100 seat battle ground? Tossing the E Jet type into the heart of ALPA's representational battle seems like lighting a fuse. I know you think your scope has this wrapped up, but are you sure?

Rumors from a wide variety of sources are that the ASA MEC was playing footsie with the Delta MEC on a J4J type agreement while LOA 41 was being negotiated. Surely Delta management knows something of it and perhaps is angling to get the type going at a subsidiary with a less cozy relationship between labor leadership.

I would sure like to see ALPA provide some sort of leadership that would get your pilots off the street now and provide some future for the RJ's pilots as the type gets phased out in favor of larger, more efficient airplanes.

We can probably forget the days of $40 oil. As China's economy spins up demand is going to soar.

~~~^~~~

Fins,

A fuel surcharge, like the one just instituted by NW and followed by everyone else, is a start. We just added $20 to each roundtrip, and we will probably add more if oil continues to climb. NW has finally figured it out.

As far as Comair getting 90 and 100 seaters, well, not for Delta, according to our VP of flight Ops in that lounge show. He said no way. Now, Comair could get them for someone else, but not on the Delta side. If that is the case, good for them, and enjoy flying them for United etc.....

The days of $40 oil may not be gone for good, but they are gone when we have constant cold weather storms in the NE. When we thaw out it will go down again, but then probably rise for the Summer driving season. It sounds like a cycle. Hopefully the surcharges will run in cycles too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

FBJ,


Now, as far as your diatribe on how "we redheaded stepchildren" should be treated, I say "HUH?" What? Treachorus actions by our labor group? Huh? Please say again what our labor group did to affect our furloughs?

.....So, before you lambast me, you need to read up more on your Comair/ASA/Delta history. Quit preaching when you don't know the facts....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Obviously I failed to get thru to you. Your perspective is devisive. Reread my post, Delta guys are not blamless and don't deserve only the best of the best. Understand I don't wish you guys to suffer, but I do wish you would stop whining about it. You can come out of this experience a better person and stronger.


Your right, though, I don't know all the "facts". Just like I don't know much about the Hatfield vs. McCoy fued. Enjoy your fued.


Even though we disagree, I can't wait until DAL folks are all called back. I wish you guys well.

 

[General Lee]

Obviously I failed to get thru to you. Your perspective is devisive. Reread my post, Delta guys are not blamless and don't deserve only the best of the best. Understand I don't wish you guys to suffer, but I do wish you would stop whining about it. You can come out of this experience a better person and stronger.


Your right, though, I don't know all the "facts". Just like I don't know much about the Hatfield vs. McCoy fued. Enjoy your fued.


Even though we disagree, I can't wait until DAL folks are all called back. I wish you guys well.

Devisive? We weren't like that during the Comair strike. We all wanted them to win because Delta could afford it at the time. We all hoped they would, and we contributed a lot, along with everyone else. It didn't happen. Then, 9-11 hit and we had our own huge problems. We started to downsize, and people were getting furloughed. It was a scary time for everyone, except the regionals were now starting to backfill our old flights, and Lawson---the Comair MEC Chair, wanted it all. Our MEC chair went to him for possible help for our guys, many of which were ex Comair pilots that were in the wrong place at the wrong time now, and Lawson wanted something in return for their help. Their next excuse was management didn't allow it (even though now they do----as they got new 70 seaters...), and on and on and on........ I never heard any sympathy for any of our guys problems----only "Can't do it......nope....can't do it". And, in the meantime ASA and CHQ opened their doors to help out our guys in need. I wish I didn't have to re-live this fight, but don't expect me to forget how they treated some of our people, the same people who helped them out. I got to hear it first hand from some of my friends that were furloughed, and it was a terrible time. That is what I won't forget. Why not reward somebody for their generosity? ASA and CHQ were great to our people and offered them a hand. That is what I am getting at here-----more "rewarding" and less "punishing." I would rather stress the "rewarding"----and I believe ASA and CHQ deserve to be rewarded for their help. That is my opinion, which will be forwarded to the people in charge of future hiring. Let's get off the punishment thing, but I still won't forget what happened. I don't think anyone really will.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

general history lesson

>>>>Lawson---the Comair MEC Chair, wanted it all. Our MEC chair went to him for possible help for our guys, many of which were ex Comair pilots that were in the wrong place at the wrong time now, and Lawson wanted something in return for their help.



You are correct...to a point. He did want something in return. Your MEC chair started the meeting with direct threats. He rode in on his high horse, laid out his very very limited time frame for the meeting and compliance with his demands, and threatened something along the lines of: "You will do this or there will be hell to pay" was his not even thinly veiled threat. He specificaly said if we didn't make a big show trying to change management's policy he would see to it that the Delta pilot group would retaliate against the Comair rank and file when it came to future hiring. His meeting was a take it or leave it demand, full of disrespect and arrogance.

Our MEC's response? Heck no unless you bow down to me as you are demanding me do to you. Anyone would have responded that way, even ASA and CHQ. I thought we should have taken the high road and we didn't. Many Comair pilots lobbied our reps and management to hire DAL furloughs anyway, and several of us wrote checks without ever being asked to. Now you say all ASA and CHQ pilots should go ahead of all CMR pilots, even those who helped. That is wrong. Maybe its a catharsis for you, who knows.

If you don't believe the version of this story I've laid out, call your MEC chair at the time and ask him. Also ask him what Comair pilots were at that same meeting and call them and get their story too. This issue is obviously of huge importance to you. You should at least get the whole story before you set "CMR villians/ASA heros" in stone, don't you think?

Now I know this doesn't excuse our MECs behavior on this issue, but I have to wonder why this is even being discussed. We've hired many UAL, FLYI and USAir furluoghs who are still on the lists of the airlines who furloughed them, despite the fact that they "resigned". Ditto for Eagle, CoEx, Commutair and others (all were offered recall rights when their time came, so IOW they were still on their respective lists) even though they "resigned". So why is Delta the only airline (or one of the very, very few) who enforces resignation letters to pilots its furloughed?

Again I ask you, who would you hire, a ASA pilot who you know didn't do squat other than get hired on with a carrier who just so happened to have an MEC your MEC got along better with, and who is also in the RJDC, or a Comair pilot who went to considerable effort and expense to help and did his best to try to change the way things were? Don't cop out with generalizations. In this example, who would you hire? Who would you "reward"?

 

[General Lee]

>>>>Lawson---the Comair MEC Chair, wanted it all. Our MEC chair went to him for possible help for our guys, many of which were ex Comair pilots that were in the wrong place at the wrong time now, and Lawson wanted something in return for their help.



You are correct...to a point. He did want something in return. Your MEC chair started the meeting with direct threats. He rode in on his high horse, laid out his very very limited time frame for the meeting and compliance with his demands, and threatened something along the lines of: "You will do this or there will be hell to pay" was his not even thinly veiled threat. He specificaly said if we didn't make a big show trying to change management's policy he would see to it that the Delta pilot group would retaliate against the Comair rank and file when it came to future hiring. His meeting was a take it or leave it demand, full of disrespect and arrogance.

Our MEC's response? Heck no unless you bow down to me as you are demanding me do to you. Anyone would have responded that way, even ASA and CHQ. I thought we should have taken the high road and we didn't. Many Comair pilots lobbied our reps and management to hire DAL furloughs anyway, and several of us wrote checks without ever being asked to. Now you say all ASA and CHQ pilots should go ahead of all CMR pilots, even those who helped. That is wrong. Maybe its a catharsis for you, who knows.

If you don't believe the version of this story I've laid out, call your MEC chair at the time and ask him. Also ask him what Comair pilots were at that same meeting and call them and get their story too. This issue is obviously of huge importance to you. You should at least get the whole story before you set "CMR villians/ASA heros" in stone, don't you think?

Now I know this doesn't excuse our MECs behavior on this issue, but I have to wonder why this is even being discussed. We've hired many UAL, FLYI and USAir furluoghs who are still on the lists of the airlines who furloughed them, despite the fact that they "resigned". Ditto for Eagle, CoEx, Commutair and others (all were offered recall rights when their time came, so IOW they were still on their respective lists) even though they "resigned". So why is Delta the only airline (or one of the very, very few) who enforces resignation letters to pilots its furloughed?

Again I ask you, who would you hire, a ASA pilot who you know didn't do squat other than get hired on with a carrier who just so happened to have an MEC your MEC got along better with, and who is also in the RJDC, or a Comair pilot who went to considerable effort and expense to help and did his best to try to change the way things were? Don't cop out with generalizations. In this example, who would you hire? Who would you "reward"?

P38,

You are asking a lot of hypotheticals here. I don't know what the interviewers will do eventually, it may be a long way off. But, someday it will happen, and there may just be some sort of questions asked. I think this all may be moot if SkyWest buys you now----maybe you will all be SkyWest pilots....... All I can say is that there are a lot of us that are disappointed with how the majority of Comair pilots acted during those bad times. I can say I am bitter, I am. I saw first hand the pain my friends were going through, and when they heard Comair wanted them to resign their Delta numbers before joining their "team", they weren't very happy about it.

If I had to pick, I would pick the guy who tried to help our people. Did you try P38? Did you? There should be a reward for that. I still thank ASA guys and even the CHQ guys I meet to this day for helping our people.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[doh]

I met your MEC chair. He was a b@st@rd to me as soon as he found out who I worked for. I was not impressed. Demanding and disrespectful of me as a human being. Arrogant too. Yes, that probably played a big role in our response.

 

[General Lee]

I met your MEC chair. He was a b@st@rd to me as soon as he found out who I worked for. I was not impressed. Demanding and disrespectful of me as a human being. Arrogant too. Yes, that probably played a big role in our response.

Was this after the cold reception from Lawson? I bet it was.....


Bye Bye--General Lee