Reasons I dont miss the airlines:

[flyipilot]

Unless all of the people who really can't afford a full "private jet" start slumming it in first class when they need to travel.... NO ONE is immune to this economy....next year many may be saying "glad I didn't follow the fad and go to NetJets." You just never know, so I wouldn't get too comfortable in the losses of some low cost carriers... I choose not to live in a state of oblivious...the wealthy will be cutting back too, rest assured...

You are a silly silly man. I can't stop laughing...whew. Well, we at least know you are not a wealthy person. Go out and meet a few, then tell me if this economy is hurting them.

 

[t-bone]

Is there anything preventing a foreign company operate biz jets with cheaper labor from TEB-MIA?

Yes, that would be cabatoge. And foreign owned companies can't hold an FAA operating certificate.

 

[realityman]

Agreed. I love NJA. And I certainly HOPE that I'll have a long and prosperous career here.

However, I've said it before, NO ONE is immune forever from a bad economy. It will catch up to the fracs eventually. As others have said, it's a question of who will weather the storm best.

I do believe, very strongly, that the fracs are in a better position to weather the storm than the airlines are. As costs go up, we can pass them along to our owners faster and easier than the airlines can to their pax. And as someone else mentioned, our clients have contracts which prevent immediate departures from the program.

Now, will they renew at the end of the contract? How many fuel surcharges and extras tacked onto the bill will they tolerate? We haven't reached the breaking point yet. But maybe it's very close?

The whole point being, I feel much more secure working at a frac right now than I would at an airline, but that doesn't mean the job will be here forever. I'm kinda hoping though.

 

[realityman]

t-bone, depending on what kind of open skies agreement our government comes up with, that may not be the case forever. A little scary.

The only thing truly protecting us right now is that it's still VERY expensive to live almost anywhere overseas that has a good supply of pilots, and any company that wants to seriously undercut the current fracs will need very cheap labor. I'm not sure how many foreign pilots can be recruited to do this kind of work for bargain basement salaries over there.

And FLOPS has tried to make a business out of undercutting the prices of the other fracs, and it hasn't worked out too terribly well for them.

Basically, a Citation XL from another country over here will still burn the same fuel, incur the same maintenance costs, pay the same landing fees, and all the other expenses as the current fracs. the only real place to significantly cut costs will be labor. And that brings it right on back to the cost of living overseas and will there be lots of pilots willing to work for peanuts.

 

[t-bone]

Shows how much I understand Open Skies!!! Thanks for the the explanation. I thought it would only affect 121 operators, didn't realize it could affect us 135 folks as well.

 

[rumrnr78]

I remember reading something about the average Frac owner having a net worth of 25 million just to give this discussion some perspective.

I remember a husband telling us his wife was running late (like we care our job is to leave when they want) anyway, the wife comes whipping up in a brand new Bentley. Gets on the plane and we are taxing out within a couple of minutes. Flew them down to St. Maarten where I met the helicopter pilot taking them to their yacht near St. Barts. These people are beyond first class. Not immune to the economy but pretty well insulated.

Cheers- Rum

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Even "funnier"...

You are a silly silly man. I can't stop laughing...whew. Well, we at least know you are not a wealthy person. Go out and meet a few, then tell me if this economy is hurting them.

Actually, I don't need to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but you should be aware of one thing... Most genuinely wealthy people pay a h*ll of a lot more to the head of their housekeeping staff than any of the few NJAs BBJ Captains there even are. If any of you guys on here started bragging about your contract to someone like that, the way you do here, they'd laugh at how little it takes to keep the you happy.

The sooner you morons (you know exactly the type I am talking about, not ALL NJA pilots) realize that your OWNERS don't see you as colleagues with all your "riches" (roflmao) the sooner you will stop being an embarrassment to yourselves.

The cycle is funny...it always CYCLEs...imagine that.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Agreed. I love NJA. And I certainly HOPE that I'll have a long and prosperous career here.

However, I've said it before, NO ONE is immune forever from a bad economy. It will catch up to the fracs eventually. As others have said, it's a question of who will weather the storm best.

I do believe, very strongly, that the fracs are in a better position to weather the storm than the airlines are. As costs go up, we can pass them along to our owners faster and easier than the airlines can to their pax. And as someone else mentioned, our clients have contracts which prevent immediate departures from the program.

Now, will they renew at the end of the contract? How many fuel surcharges and extras tacked onto the bill will they tolerate? We haven't reached the breaking point yet. But maybe it's very close?

The whole point being, I feel much more secure working at a frac right now than I would at an airline, but that doesn't mean the job will be here forever. I'm kinda hoping though.

Precisely.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

I lament at the state of the airline industry today. Like other posters have said fractionals serve a different clientele which may weather economic turbulence better.

Those who display hubris about their current position need to be wary that no segment of the aviation industry is immune to a downturn. I hope those displaced pilots are able to find another job.

 

[realityman]

T-bone, sorry I wasn't more clear. You are correct sir. The current incarnation of open skies would only affect 121 carriers.

My point was that depending on how it goes, we could see it spread even to our area of ops. But I don't believe it'd be a true threat for the reasons I mentioned previously.

 

[pilot772]

A couple of observations,

First how long do economic downturns last usually 2-3 years tops, anything more than that we have a lot more to worry about than the Frac-Airline argument. Most of our customers
(91k) are locked into a 5 year contract, so in theory the economy could be in an upswing by the time renewal comes about. with the financial backing of Berkshire NJA should be able to weather lower ownership over the next few years. also the marquis jet card is sort of a wild card. Most think that will be the first hit which i agree to a certain extent, but there are always going to be athletes, politicians, and movie stars that will have the extra cash to have their cards. Also, perhaps owners that don't renew due to the economic downturn go with marquis for a few years, much cheaper other than the tax benefits.

the other point as far as undercutting and cheap labor, our customers aren't nascar dads, or soccer moms who will go with the cheapest even if its only $5. Our customers on top of expecting nop notch service pay for our judgement and highly safety conscious culture. (not knocking any other Fracs as I believe all out there are very safe and I am speaking more to the equivalent of a potential low cost Frac.)

Just today we were trying to go to a small uncontrolled field in GA, when we pulled up the Radar loop it was basically going to be under the gun for severe thunder storms all day and into the night. we conferred with the company about the prospects of actually competing the flight. When the owners arrived we laid out the different scenarios, and showed them the radar and forecast. They decided to cancel and were very grateful for our decision making, honesty, and professional opinions. (It was a family taking their young son on a fishing trip for the day the hardest part of the job was seeing the dad explain to the son why they couldn't go fishing.)

anyway rant over

 

[johnnyride24]

FUEl

Lets See.
Jet-A Aspen 2006 roughly 4.85$ a gallon.
April 2008 8.35$ roughly.
1000*4.85=4,850.
1000*8.35=8,350.

So now it cost 3500$ more to fly from ASE to TEB. This is nothing, the people we fly make millions and when the economy is down the rich get richer.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I lament at the state of the airline industry today. Like other posters have said fractionals serve a different clientele which may weather economic turbulence better.

Those who display hubris about their current position need to be wary that no segment of the aviation industry is immune to a downturn. I hope those displaced pilots are able to find another job.

Alienating all other pilots groups with obnoxious displays which only spotlight innate insecurities, then going ahead and burning the national union bridges whose help they may need someday, probably won't be helpful when it does...
Maybe their clientele will assist the "help" to get another service position?
Hold your breath on that one...
I love when people find the perfect dream job, then spend 24/7 on the net trying to prove it...Great life, for sure

 

[Voice Of Reason]

This is nothing, the people we fly make millions and when the economy is down the rich get richer.

Enron was set for life too.

 

[learflyer]

Actually, I don't need to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but you should be aware of one thing... Most genuinely wealthy people pay a h*ll of a lot more to the head of their housekeeping staff than any of the few NJAs BBJ Captains there even are. If any of you guys on here started bragging about your contract to someone like that, the way you do here, they'd laugh at how little it takes to keep the you happy.

The sooner you morons (you know exactly the type I am talking about, not ALL NJA pilots) realize that your OWNERS don't see you as colleagues with all your "riches" (roflmao) the sooner you will stop being an embarrassment to yourselves.

The cycle is funny...it always CYCLEs...imagine that.

what about the (flops) guys Emeril invited to the tonight show? "Hey, those are my pilots." Emeril himself gave us passes to his restaraunt in new orleans. We walked in, and he treated us like majesty. Even cleared a path for us to walk in. few and far between? Yes. Does it happen? yes.