Reasons I dont miss the airlines:

[rumrnr78]

I remember reading something about the average Frac owner having a net worth of 25 million just to give this discussion some perspective.

I remember a husband telling us his wife was running late (like we care our job is to leave when they want) anyway, the wife comes whipping up in a brand new Bentley. Gets on the plane and we are taxing out within a couple of minutes. Flew them down to St. Maarten where I met the helicopter pilot taking them to their yacht near St. Barts. These people are beyond first class. Not immune to the economy but pretty well insulated.

Cheers- Rum

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Even "funnier"...

You are a silly silly man. I can't stop laughing...whew. Well, we at least know you are not a wealthy person. Go out and meet a few, then tell me if this economy is hurting them.

Actually, I don't need to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but you should be aware of one thing... Most genuinely wealthy people pay a h*ll of a lot more to the head of their housekeeping staff than any of the few NJAs BBJ Captains there even are. If any of you guys on here started bragging about your contract to someone like that, the way you do here, they'd laugh at how little it takes to keep the you happy.

The sooner you morons (you know exactly the type I am talking about, not ALL NJA pilots) realize that your OWNERS don't see you as colleagues with all your "riches" (roflmao) the sooner you will stop being an embarrassment to yourselves.

The cycle is funny...it always CYCLEs...imagine that.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Agreed. I love NJA. And I certainly HOPE that I'll have a long and prosperous career here.

However, I've said it before, NO ONE is immune forever from a bad economy. It will catch up to the fracs eventually. As others have said, it's a question of who will weather the storm best.

I do believe, very strongly, that the fracs are in a better position to weather the storm than the airlines are. As costs go up, we can pass them along to our owners faster and easier than the airlines can to their pax. And as someone else mentioned, our clients have contracts which prevent immediate departures from the program.

Now, will they renew at the end of the contract? How many fuel surcharges and extras tacked onto the bill will they tolerate? We haven't reached the breaking point yet. But maybe it's very close?

The whole point being, I feel much more secure working at a frac right now than I would at an airline, but that doesn't mean the job will be here forever. I'm kinda hoping though.

Precisely.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

I lament at the state of the airline industry today. Like other posters have said fractionals serve a different clientele which may weather economic turbulence better.

Those who display hubris about their current position need to be wary that no segment of the aviation industry is immune to a downturn. I hope those displaced pilots are able to find another job.

 

[realityman]

T-bone, sorry I wasn't more clear. You are correct sir. The current incarnation of open skies would only affect 121 carriers.

My point was that depending on how it goes, we could see it spread even to our area of ops. But I don't believe it'd be a true threat for the reasons I mentioned previously.

 

[pilot772]

A couple of observations,

First how long do economic downturns last usually 2-3 years tops, anything more than that we have a lot more to worry about than the Frac-Airline argument. Most of our customers
(91k) are locked into a 5 year contract, so in theory the economy could be in an upswing by the time renewal comes about. with the financial backing of Berkshire NJA should be able to weather lower ownership over the next few years. also the marquis jet card is sort of a wild card. Most think that will be the first hit which i agree to a certain extent, but there are always going to be athletes, politicians, and movie stars that will have the extra cash to have their cards. Also, perhaps owners that don't renew due to the economic downturn go with marquis for a few years, much cheaper other than the tax benefits.

the other point as far as undercutting and cheap labor, our customers aren't nascar dads, or soccer moms who will go with the cheapest even if its only $5. Our customers on top of expecting nop notch service pay for our judgement and highly safety conscious culture. (not knocking any other Fracs as I believe all out there are very safe and I am speaking more to the equivalent of a potential low cost Frac.)

Just today we were trying to go to a small uncontrolled field in GA, when we pulled up the Radar loop it was basically going to be under the gun for severe thunder storms all day and into the night. we conferred with the company about the prospects of actually competing the flight. When the owners arrived we laid out the different scenarios, and showed them the radar and forecast. They decided to cancel and were very grateful for our decision making, honesty, and professional opinions. (It was a family taking their young son on a fishing trip for the day the hardest part of the job was seeing the dad explain to the son why they couldn't go fishing.)

anyway rant over

 

[johnnyride24]

FUEl

Lets See.
Jet-A Aspen 2006 roughly 4.85$ a gallon.
April 2008 8.35$ roughly.
1000*4.85=4,850.
1000*8.35=8,350.

So now it cost 3500$ more to fly from ASE to TEB. This is nothing, the people we fly make millions and when the economy is down the rich get richer.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I lament at the state of the airline industry today. Like other posters have said fractionals serve a different clientele which may weather economic turbulence better.

Those who display hubris about their current position need to be wary that no segment of the aviation industry is immune to a downturn. I hope those displaced pilots are able to find another job.

Alienating all other pilots groups with obnoxious displays which only spotlight innate insecurities, then going ahead and burning the national union bridges whose help they may need someday, probably won't be helpful when it does...
Maybe their clientele will assist the "help" to get another service position?
Hold your breath on that one...
I love when people find the perfect dream job, then spend 24/7 on the net trying to prove it...Great life, for sure

 

[Voice Of Reason]

This is nothing, the people we fly make millions and when the economy is down the rich get richer.

Enron was set for life too.

 

[learflyer]

Actually, I don't need to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but you should be aware of one thing... Most genuinely wealthy people pay a h*ll of a lot more to the head of their housekeeping staff than any of the few NJAs BBJ Captains there even are. If any of you guys on here started bragging about your contract to someone like that, the way you do here, they'd laugh at how little it takes to keep the you happy.

The sooner you morons (you know exactly the type I am talking about, not ALL NJA pilots) realize that your OWNERS don't see you as colleagues with all your "riches" (roflmao) the sooner you will stop being an embarrassment to yourselves.

The cycle is funny...it always CYCLEs...imagine that.

what about the (flops) guys Emeril invited to the tonight show? "Hey, those are my pilots." Emeril himself gave us passes to his restaraunt in new orleans. We walked in, and he treated us like majesty. Even cleared a path for us to walk in. few and far between? Yes. Does it happen? yes.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Actually, I don't need to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but you should be aware of one thing... Most genuinely wealthy people pay a h*ll of a lot more to the head of their housekeeping staff than any of the few NJAs BBJ Captains there even are. If any of you guys on here started bragging about your contract to someone like that, the way you do here, they'd laugh at how little it takes to keep the you happy.

The sooner you morons (you know exactly the type I am talking about, not ALL NJA pilots) realize that your OWNERS don't see you as colleagues with all your "riches" (roflmao) the sooner you will stop being an embarrassment to yourselves.

The cycle is funny...it always CYCLEs...imagine that.

Voice of reason should tell you if our pay is below a "housekeeper" level, then we stand a fairly good chance of being in business long after your rear end and unfortunately half the airlines in the US are gone. You really are a ******************************bag if you think we look at our owners as "colleagues". We get them from point A to B as safe and efficiently as possible..maybe a little friendly conversation to make the trip more personable and thats it! "Colleagues"..Ah, you funny guy you. KOOK!:laugh:

 

[superfly]

From Midway to payday...

I got hired in 2001 when the last downturn began. Airlines furloughed and NJA grew like mad in 2002. We can't every be fully insulated from a recession, but our "R" value is a hell of a lot better than the airlines.

As airlines contiune to cut service our owners will have less options to go commercial and will need us to be productive.

I'm getting my Netjets tatoo next week...

 

[NJA Capt]

NO ONE is immune to this economy....next year many may be saying "glad I didn't follow the fad and go to NetJets."

There are roughly 12,000 business jets in the US. NetJets currently has approx 800.

If the industry were to go in the tank, fully owned private jets would be on the chopping block. The people selling "their" airplanes aren't going to go back to airlines. They are more likely to sell their plane and buy a "share" of one or more of ours.

A company needs to fly over 400 hours/year to justify full ownership. If fuel gets too high and they cut back on flying, full ownership is not justifiable and they will be more likely to buy a share of an equitable plane or possibly a smaller one.

In both scenarios, the fractional model excels in a down economy. Again, no one said we were immune.

 

[batsky2000]

Yes, that would be cabatoge. And foreign owned companies can't hold an FAA operating certificate.

Not True, foreign citizens can not own more than 25% of a US company, but there is no restriction in terms of an operating certificate, one example of this is NJME, that is an operation within National air Services which is a Saudi Company with NO US involvement, but they have an FAA operating certificate and the aircraft are all N registered, so yes foreign companies can have FAA operating certificates without even operating within the US

 

[IDEtoNJA]

Not True, foreign citizens can not own more than 25% of a US company, but there is no restriction in terms of an operating certificate, one example of this is NJME, that is an operation within National air Services which is a Saudi Company with NO US involvement, but they have an FAA operating certificate and the aircraft are all N registered, so yes foreign companies can have FAA operating certificates without even operating within the US

Batsky,

According to the FAA's web-site National Air Service -- DBA NetJets Middle East -- does only have a 14 CFR 129 Air Carrier Certificate. By the way, the same applies to NJE.

Said Air Carrier Certificate does not allow NJME or NJE to operate under either 14 CFR 91K, 121, 125, or 135 operations! I.e. 14 CFR 129 does not allow an air-carrier to hold out to the public for the carriage of passengers or goods within the US.

As far as I know, foreign citizens and/or entities are not allowed to own more then 24.9% controlling interest in any Air Carrier Certificate holder that allows operations under 14 CFR 121 or 135 -- not sure about 125!

Furthermore, foreign citizens and/or entities are not allowed to own more then 24.9% interest in the ownership of a N-Registered aircraft! Do foreign citizens and/or entities control N-Registered aircraft outside the US? Yes, they do; however, they "technically" do not own more then 24.9% interest in the aircraft. The restriction applies to permanent residents that do not hold a US citizenship as well!

IDEtoNJA

 

[buckeyeflyer680]

Frontier is next.
Heard some employees didn't get a full paycheck recently.

 

[XTW]

The sooner you morons (you know exactly the type I am talking about, not ALL NJA pilots) realize that your OWNERS don't see you as colleagues with all your "riches" (roflmao) the sooner you will stop being an embarrassment to yourselves.

I don't work for NJA, however I have never read anything, anywhere where any pilot has ever made the slightest hint that they thought that their owners see them as "colleagues". Where did you come up with this?

X


PS Were you turned down by, or leave NJA in the past? You seem to harbor a grudge.

 

[av8tor4239]

Those Netjets customers (and corporate owners) who use private aircraft for BUSINESS probably couldn't do their jobs WITHOUT the aircraft.

Let's try an SAT question.

Scenario A:
Executive "Joe" drives two hours in morning rush hour traffic to the airport, parks in long-term, waits for the shuttle bus, goes inside, checks in at a kiosk, shows his ID, checks his luggage, stands in line at security, removes his shoes...belt...etc., gets frisked anyway, goes to gate and waits again. Meanwhile, some TSA flunky downstairs is opening executive Joe's luggage, going through his underwear, etc. He finally boards, sits next to Tourist "Bob" wearing a wife-beater and attempting to read over Executive Joe's shoulder. The airplane is number 91 in line at LaGarbage and Executive Joe ends up :45 minutes late connecting in Atlanta. He runs to his connection (an RJ where he is unable to fit his laptop on his tray table) and just barely makes it before they push. Arriving in New Orleans Executive Joe waits for his luggage (and waits...and waits), then rents a car -- because Executive Joe's business wasn't in New Orleans, it was in Hammond Lousiana on the north side of the lake. 90 minutes later Joe finally arrives at the plant in Hammond and begins to conduct his business. It's too late to go home, so Executive Joe checks into a hotel. The next day he airlines home and arrives mid-day. He is exhausted from his trip but goes to the office anyway, working well into the night to get caught up from all of the work he was unable to complete while in transit.

Scenario B:
Executive Joe arrives at Teterboro where the crew is waiting. He knows the flight crew by name and has been flying with them for years. A Wall Street Journal was placed on his seat just like he likes it. Within 5 minutes of arriving at the airport engines are started and they taxi out. There is a short delay for flow, but within :30 minutes they are airborne and two hours later are descending towards Hammond. They land at the Hammond airport where a car is waiting to whisk him to the plant. Two hours later, his business complete, he climbs back aboard the waiting aircraft and is airborne within 90 seconds. Enroute back home he works on his laptop, talks on the satellite telephone, and even has time for a short nap before arriving. He is on the ground by 5:30, makes it home in time for dinner with his family and is well rested to begin work the next day.

Question:
What is the value of a Fortune 100 Executive's time?

Our department has actually quantified it and each year we present to the company how much TIME is saved by using corporate aviation versus an alternative. Then we help them attach a dollar amount to that time.

I admit, however, that our company is unique. Our fleet doesn't do any recreational flying. We don't take managers or executives golfing, fishing, hunting etc. The airplanes are used solely to support the business enterprise. I'm always aware that this could go away tomorrow and be replaced by a fractional if we're not competitive.

Excellent Post!

 

[bluepost]

Alienating all other pilots groups with obnoxious displays which only spotlight innate insecurities, then going ahead and burning the national union bridges whose help they may need someday, probably won't be helpful when it does...
Maybe their clientele will assist the "help" to get another service position?
Hold your breath on that one...
I love when people find the perfect dream job, then spend 24/7 on the net trying to prove it...Great life, for sure

I suppose an even greater life is always seeing the glass half empty and restocking your bomb shelter, and cringing when someone else does find their dream job because you never found yours and even if you did you would be paranoid the entire time and couldn't enjoy it all the while waiting anxiously for UNIONs to stumble so you can have your 90 seconds of glory. (and yes I know it is a run on sentence...that is how all your posts store themselves in my brain)

 

[Club ORD FO]

I think Midwest and Sun Country might be soon too.