Reality Check for NetJets Pilots

[Hawkered]

Netjet Wife:

You don't have to take any of these posts personally, because this board is supposed to be anonymous. You have chosen to negate some of the protections that anonymity allows...but that's not anyone elses problem. So if you call it slander, then stay home.

No, I'm not selfish to anyones plight. I think that sometimes people have to be protected from themselves. I believe that I do have certain insights as to how things can et in a union dispute and my assesment is that this pilot group does not have the stomach for it...yet!

If you want to call me selfish, then go ahead. It's not slander, you don't know who I am!

 

[Hawkered]

s:

Let's just let the NTSB figure this stuff out. American had a in Little Rock with the Chicago Chief Pilot at the controls landing in a thunderstorm. Experience issues are not as readily apparent as you might imagine in investigations.

Yes, I do know about that too!

 

[Publishers]

sometimes

Sometimes the realization of what can be obtained versus what one thinks or is told can be is disheartening. All the parties would be better off to accept what is there and set the sights on what issues are really important for the next time. I think as much as anything, the upgrade times are influencing the anger and rebelliousness of many.

 

[Grim Reaper]

Interesting comments. The repo deal is the same and the upgrade times just as slow at all the fractionals. The majority of life on the road issues are also the same at all the fractionals.

Someone mentioned in another thred that an investigation of the election process for the TA is already underway. Wondering where that tidbit was reported.

One would think that the IBT, after all these years, would have the administration of a memeber vote codified and lron Clade fool proof.

 

[Starman]

Publishers,

After the recent success of the 400XP bid, we only have about 150 pilots that won't be receiving "Captain's" pay. Most of them joined NetJets within the last 3-4 months and knew exactly what they were getting into. How then, do you surmise that upgrade times are the problem? As usual, you have absolutely no clue about what is going on at NetJets. Yet you want to seem like you are the expert on our affairs. Go run a company and leave the work of getting a decent contract to us. Your opinion on our affairs is of no meaning to those of us in the trenches.

 

[Publishers]

Well Gee Starman, your opinion is obviously worth more. The fact is that from many of the posts, it seemed to me that a good many posts, including Netwife, were related to F/o problems and there were not a bunch of posts from people saying they had been with NJ for 8 years etc. etc Are you saying that the people that have been there longer than three or four months did not know what they were getting into. Read in BCA about life on a Honeywell trip. Life on the road is the deal at Netjets. In many corporate situations, life on the road is the deal.

Even though you pulled off this charade pay increase, real upgrades have not been that fast and for the most part Flexjet and FO have not been on a real growth mode. CS is about the only one with real growth.

From an industry perspective, I know you probably do not care about that, the situation is industry wide. Upgrades and the flow up to the major spots has come to a halt. The career progression has slowed and the promise of a future jumbo jet job waning in the wind. This leads to disgruntled pilots. That simple. If this is not part of the Netjets culture, pardon me. It is part of the overall industry current status. That is why I still participate on these boards.

 

[netjetwife]

Hawkered, how about if the company acts proactively instead of reactively in regards to scheduling? One would hope that the pilots themselves would refuse to fly beyond their limits of endurance; unfortunately, those pilots too afraid to stand up for a better contract may have a hard time saying No to that last flight. It never ceases to amaze me that there are limits on the hours truckers can drive that are lower than the number pilots regularly fly. That many of them (and bus drivers) are also paid more than some pilots only adds insult to injury.

Publishers, my version of disheartening differs sharply from yours. Nothing lowers my spirit faster than having an exchange w/pilots and/or wives that are too afraid to stand up for what is clearly right. Unless, of course, it is debating the issues w/those too selfish/stubborn to admit that they DO recognize the flaws in the TA, but are too busy calculating what they personally stand to gain, to care about their fellow pilots (and their families) that would be held down by this pathetic TA--and I don't mean only monetarily, either. One more group that I find disheartening are those out there who apparently have no idea how to bargain for a good deal (though for some this may only be a smokescreen to hide their selfishness or fear). Take the FIRST offer thrown on the table--are you kidding?? Suffer thru 3yrs of a miserable contract without even being able to say that AT LEAST YOU TRIED to better your condition?? How VERY disheartening, not to mention damaging to one's self respect!

Grim Reaper, (btw, that is my 8yr old son's costume this year--inherited from his big brother-- ) Yes, one WOULD think that the IBT knew their business after all these years. Which explains why higher ups were interested to hear about the glaring problems/broken bylaws occuring w/the MEC election, and to a lesser degree the TA vote, at 284. Wouldn't you love to see the looks on their faces when it's a landslide victory IN SPITE of their shenanigans?? NJW

 

[netjetwife]

.
The career progression has slowed and the promise of a future jumbo jet job waning in the wind. This leads to disgruntled pilots. That simple. If this is not part of the Netjets culture, pardon me.

I have no doubt that you can find pilots using the job as a stepping stone. It seems more common, though, to hear about the goals of many to make NJA a CAREER position they can keep long term. My husband prefers the type of flying they do compared to his tenure at AA. The variety and added responsibilities make the job more interesting to many NJ pilots. True, the pay isn't comparable, but they hope to improve that well enough to tip the scales in favor of remaing when all the pros and cons of each are tallied. Perhaps if you weren't SO focused on the purely business side of things, you'd have a greater appreciation for the current conditions those pilots are facing in their endeavor to make NJA a job they can afford to keep, instead of one they merely enjoy.

Finally, about that pardon you requested...

To view your eCard, choose from the options below.

Click on the following link.
http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=103797648&m=1932&rr=y&source=bma999

 

[niteflyr]

Tried to stay out of this but...

What exactly do you mean "having an exchange w/pilots and/or wives that are too afraid to stand up for what is clearly right."

You mean to tell me that because someone does not see things your way they are somehow afraid of the company or something? That sounds like the ultimate selfishness to me, after you repeatedly sit here and call anyone who voted yes selfish.

I voted NO, but I get tired of these tactics being employed. Everyone has a right to vote YES or NO, and do not deserve to be degraded if they didn't vote the way you and the SU said they should. For some people this contract is a legitimate improvement, much of which covers only the very senior pilots (notice the year 12+ raise %). Many long distance commuters are happily voting for the new gateways so they can improve their quality and quantity of time off. Bottom line, if more people feel it isn't an improvement then they vote NO and it doesn't pass. That is all, don't make it more than what it is. The ultimate selfish attitude is one of VOTE LIKE ME or you are worthless.

 

[Les Paul]

You mean to tell me that because someone does not see things your way they are somehow afraid of the company or something? That sounds like the ultimate selfishness to me, after you repeatedly sit here and call anyone who voted yes selfish.

I've been saying this for awhile now. I don't care how Netjets employees vote. THEY work there and it is THEIR own business. It is NONE of Netjetwife business how the EMPLOYEES vote. As a "wife" Netjetswife should have made 1 or 2 posts about her opinion, then moved on.

She is on this forum day and night PASSING HER JUDGEMENT on the TA, the MEC, and berating those who disagree with HER opinion. She also routinely states how Netjet pilots feel. Who is she to make that determination?

Believe me, she is very lucky that some the Netjets pilots on this forum have their lips planted on her posterior, because where I work, the PILOTS would have stood up and told her to mind her own business. Someone should have told her that after her 2nd or 3rd post.... not 170 posts plus that she has made in a month and a half here, and people acting as if she is one of you.

Wake up. SHE IS AN EMPLOYEES SPOUSE. Imagine if all labor-management relations were dictated by spouses showing up at your workplace.

The Netjets pilots that kiss up to her on this forum day in and day out should be embarrased that she is allowed to push HER agenda here.

Les Paul

 

[netjetwife]

Niteflyr, please don't put words into my mouth......I have no problem speaking for myself. That said, I will now explain "exactly" what I meant by having exchanges....

That comment was made in my post about what I deem as disheartening in this TA/MEC situation. I have had phone conversations and emails from other wives who have contacted me in their desire to share their viewpoint and persuade me to change my own. Their fear of dire results if we rock the boat rendered their argument inconsistant and irrational. It WAS a disheartening exchange. I certainly don't believe those women are "worthless", in fact I respect them for being willing to speak up. I continue to send them supportive emails of a general nature, individually and thru the wives board.

In my gateway calls, I have spoken to several senior pilots nearing retirement, their votes don't surprise me, even though I wish they had more faith that things will work out for the good of the majority. I still invite them to our gateway functions and feel no animosity towards them. Indeed, I wouldn't want to be in their positions; I find it disheartening. On the other hand, we have an older pilot in our area that is retiring next month, and abstained from the vote because it "wasn't his fight". I have great respect for his selfless position.

By now I have seen a broad spectrum of opinions, some of which I do characterize as based on fear (a position I can't imagine myself being in) or selfishness (a temptation I'm glad I don't have to face). Are those people worthless? Not in my book.

 

[PseudoName]

As the original poster to this thread, I only wanted to have a valid and justifiable discussion on the NJA TA. However, after 1 1/2 months, 10,456 views and 190 posts later.......I tuly believe the thread title should be changed.


Reality Check for NetJetWife!!!!


.......anyone care to second this motion????

 

[English]

I SECOND the motion!

 

[netjetwife]

Sorry guys, you've both been trumped by yet ANOTHER supportive private message (what great timing, K!)...and that is from this board....now if we count those posts and PMs from the SU/ASAP board....AND...factor in the support I receive from the wives board.....providing , of course that you allow women to vote.....(looking thru my mail bag)....no problem, I have enough votes from the pilots alone. MOTION DENIED!


PS Thanks for the thrill of seeing my name in print like that...LOL.. I'm flattered!

 

[MovingTarget]

"PS Thanks for the thrill of seeing my name in print like that...LOL.. I'm flattered"!

Well, that just about says it all.

 

[njwingman]

Really? I understand that NetJet pilots want 5 year Captain pay to be around 100K and F/O pay starting around 40K. In order to provide an aircraft with a full crew, that would mean NetJets would be paying a minimum of 280K in crew salaries for each aircraft (7/7 schedule, 2 Capts @ 100K ea, 2 F/Os @ 40K ea to cover the airplane = 280K).

Normal crew compliments for business aircraft is 3 pilots per airplane....not 4! So, please tell me how the NetJets desire is not unrealistic.

So, hypothetically, PseudoName, if crew salaries were $280,000/AC, what would you expect the revenues generated by that aircraft to be? Just kind of curious..since we're talking about costs, we ought to look at revenues.

 

[PseudoName]

So, hypothetically, PseudoName, if crew salaries were $280,000/AC, what would you expect the revenues generated by that aircraft to be? Just kind of curious..since we're talking about costs, we ought to look at revenues.

Look at revenues?? Yep, every NetJet aircraft is a money making machine. I have seen what NetJets charge the owners just to have access to fleet, not to mention the inflated hourly charge to fly on the airplane. It is INSANE!!

Go ahead, demand that your pay increase is in direct proportion to the increase in revenues since your last contract. I think we all know of a few pilot groups whose union demanded the same thing and got it. I just wish I could think which companies those pilots worked for.....hmm......oh yeah, didn't this happen at United and Delta?? Look at what is going on now with the pay scales over there, not to mention the company stability. Do you want the same thing to happen to NetJets?

 

[njwingman]

I wasn't throwing rocks, Pseudoname, honest. I just wanted your opinion.

I didn't mean to imply that we should demand an increase in salaries based on increases in revenues since the last contract. What do you think the annual aircraft revenue should be in order to conservatively support $280,000 in annual salary expense?

To ask the question another way, what is the percentage of annual aircraft revenue allocated to pilot salaries at your company? I'm sincerely seeking some additional information here.

 

[PseudoName]

I wasn't throwing rocks, Pseudoname, honest. I just wanted your opinion.

I didn't mean to imply that we should demand an increase in salaries based on increases in revenues since the last contract. What do you think the annual aircraft revenue should be in order to conservatively support $280,000 in annual salary expense?

To ask the question another way, what is the percentage of annual aircraft revenue allocated to pilot salaries at your company? I'm sincerely seeking some additional information here.

Holy Cow! I am not used to not having rocks thown at me on this board. Finally!

I wish I knew the percentage of revenue allocated to pilot salaries. All I know is that our company pays near NBAA wages (or over, depending on how good of a negotiator you are when getting hired). When they close the books at the end of the year, and there is money left over, we get a nice profit sharing check.

 

[rajflyboy]

Wheres Netjetwife today? I'm surprised she hasn't chimed in yet!

 

[niteflyr]

"having an exchange w/pilots and/or wives that are too afraid to stand up for what is clearly right."
** NJA Wife 10-25-04

"The lack of self-worth, exhibited by some, never ceases to amaze me."
** NJA Wife 10-24-04

What words exactly was I putting in your mouth? Sure your name isn't Kerry??

 

[netjetwife]

Absolutely, you twisted what I said, just as you are here. I don't think yes voters are worthless! Apparently, I think their skills are worth more than they, themselves, do. I urge ALL pilots that are underpaid to stand up for themselves at ALL companies. I place a high value on their airmanship, as I do my husband's. That FOs at NJA qualify for gov't assistance is definitely WRONG! For the company to expect the pilots to work for free (doing part of recurrent at home without pay) is totally UNFAIR! That some FAs make more than some of the pilots is UNJUST! There are some pilots and their wives who DO SAY we shouldn't "rock the boat"....regardless of these FACTS. Hence, my statement that they are too afraid to stand up for what is right. Their emails and phone calls exhibit a lot of fear/worry about the pilots losing their jobs if they ask for a living wage. It MUST be noted, though, that NONE of them are on FO pay, or even the lower Cpt payscale.

Rfb, I was posting on the wives board. I sent you a copy of the card that I made for them, which I'll also put on the pilots board. Do be advised that the dive boat in the picture was rented w/AF wages, and shared w/another family. It was taken during our assignment in Egypt. We can't afford to do that now.

Now off to do my stay-home mom job, which prompts this question: If I were paid to take care of my children and clean the house, would I then be considered to be "working"? Just wondering....

Have a good day guys,
Netjetwife

 

[niteflyr]

Talk about twisting. I was merely showing where you were putting down anyone who votes yes, as you have repeatedly. I did NOT say that the pay is ok, so whatever sent you off on that tangent I don't know. I said before, if this TA is an improvement financially and or schedule wise for someone and they vote yes, then that is their perogative. They are not in need of "re-educating" or lacking in anything, they can read and decide for themselves. As for take home recurrents we would not be the first to do this either so I don't see why everyone is so shocked to see it and jump all over the MEC for it.

 

[PseudoName]

For the company to expect the pilots to work for free (doing part of recurrent at home without pay) is totally UNFAIR!

Are you kidding me?? On the next contract you will want them to get paid anytime a NJA pilot sees an airplane or thinks about aviation.

Netjetwife, go ahead and get your StrongUnion to make this molehill into a mountain. NJA is not doing this for their benefit, it's to allow the pilots to get a head start on their studying (as most companies do). I am sure NJA will be glad to backoff and quit giving the take home recurrent homework. In turn, they will teach via the firehose method during recurrent in CMH in the same amount of time mandated by the FAA.

You say studying without compensation is totally UNFAIR? I say it's part of being a professional pilot. I knew that when I signed up for this gig!

Anyone else agree with me?

 

[freightdogfred]

Heavyset, He turned down FedEX, and United to go to American. Fantastic resume/pilot---has DFC from Desert Storm. Turned down JetBlue for NetJets, Sure we have friends at all the places, but we need to stay in Colorado Springs for family reasons, and commute is a pain. Took NJs based on theory that could live anywhere we want...

Jeez....For all his skill and bravery, being fighter jock and whatnot, seems like he's made some **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** poor decisions...(passing up FedEx?) If ya ask me, he's not lookin quite so smart. Like ya said, you're still in Colo springs like ya wanted to be, so I guess ya both need ta suck it up, and play the cards ya got.

This bizness don't come with a crystal ball...

 

[Starman]

NJA is not doing this for their benefit, it's to allow the pilots to get a head start on their studying (as most companies do).


...

You say studying without compensation is totally UNFAIR? I say it's part of being a professional pilot. I knew that when I signed up for this gig!

Not even close to being the truth. They want to have you actually do FAA mandated training at home on your own time on your computer. That is the rub.

I don't mind doing it but it needs to count as duty. If they want me to spend 4-6 hours on my computer doing a couple of online classes, give me a day off the schedule at the start or end of a tour to do it. Either that or pay me an extended day during that month. I expect to be paid for work I do for the company.

This is all about the company trying to save bucks by not having you do this training in Columbus on a work day. If you actually read the TA, you'd know that.

 

[NJAowner]

Staying Current

I do not know how much time you are being asked to do at home but many people stay current at home and don't get paid for it.

Accountants, lawyers, doctors all read many, many journals and articles to stay current. Plus have to take continuing education to keep licenses current (and many don't get paid extra -- it is done on a saturday). Teachers grade papers at home. In other words, many people work at home wither because they want to or have to stay current. They just don't call it "re"-current.

Fly safe.

 

[rajflyboy]

I prefer to do the recurrent at home.

Its a win win situation for me and for the company! I get to stay at home and do the training instead of commuting to Columbus and spending more time in a hotel.

The company saves money on Hotels, Airlines, Instructors.

A win win situation for all!

No brainer in my book!

 

[underdog]

I do not know how much time you are being asked to do at home but many people stay current at home and don't get paid for it.

Accountants, lawyers, doctors all read many, many journals and articles to stay current. Plus have to take continuing education to keep licenses current (and many don't get paid extra -- it is done on a saturday). Teachers grade papers at home. In other words, many people work at home wither because they want to or have to stay current. They just don't call it "re"-current.

Fly safe.

Seems like a lot of the posters here think they deserve an extra payment anytime the company calls them at home.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Its basic math . if your company is losing 100's of millions and you take a huge raise your going to go into bankrupcy.


3rd grade math

Well, here's the sticky part... UAL was actually profitable prior to the merger attempt. The industry was different. Your point is valid in 2004 but not in 2000.