Ramped by 2 airport cops and 2 sheriffs. . .Accused me of a Felony!!!! No Kidding

[FN FAL]

They CAN'T take your certificate from you. They may examine it, but THEY MUST RETURN IT TO YOU. If they plan on revoking it there is a process for that, and it does NOT involve them taking it from you during a ramp check. With a cop, I would state before I handed it to them that I was giving it to them for examination, but under the FAR's they must return it to me after inspection.

Exactly. Nobody is arguing that. My analogy was simply in response to the question, "What can a police officer do?" What can they do? They can do anything they think they can get away with, just like anybody else.

In Wisconsin, there was a cop that pulled over a man who had hefty bags full of pot in the back of his pick up truck. When the cop saw the pot, he shot the man dead in his own driveway. The cop was tried and convicted for that murder. It was discovered during the investigation that the man found the pot in the woods. Not his lucky day at the game of "finders keepers".

When they searched the cop's dwelling they found a shrine of Ronald Reagan and War on Drugs memorabilia.

If a police officer asks to see your certificates, as in the case of Iflyabeach, you are obligated to show them under the Far's and under state law, if your state has such a law.

If your state has a law requiring that you provide the documents, you risk arrest and an FAR violation, if you don't provide them.

If your state doesn't have a law requiring it, you violate an FAR if you don't provide them.

I think everybody is pretty clear on that one ATR. Sorry if I confused you with my analogy, but I was simply supposing what a cop "could" do.

 

[FN FAL]

You are not required to have, in your possession, any type of avition certificates when you are not excercising the priviledges of those certificates. Period. If someone were ask for mine and I'm not at the airport I would just say I don't have them on me and there is NOTHING that anyone can do to me under the FAR's.

Not only that, but in the scenario he listed where the cops saw the flight bag in the trunk, the only way the cops saw the inside of that pilot's trunk would have been during an inventory search of the car after they impounded it, incident to arrest; or in the case where the driver gave consent to search the car.

Another reason to not give consent to search when asked.

 

[leardawg]

I have a brother who's a cop, and he's always amazed at how many people consent to him looking in the trunk during a routine stop, even if they have drugs in there. It's like they think if they cooperate, he'll let them slide or something. If they refuse, he always has the option of holding them until the sniffing dogs arrive.

 

[FN FAL]

If they refuse, he always has the option of holding them until the sniffing dogs arrive.

I have no problem with that.

If the policeman has a lawful right to search the car, they are going to do it.

What happens when you give consent, is that you surrender the legal right to challenge the search later in court.

In addition, I also agree with what your brother says. What's nice for him, is that if he can convince the person to give up that consent, he's pretty much alleviated any civil or criminal liability on his part regarding the search. Which is a good thing for him.

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

FN FAL--Ever notice that when you give your two-cents worth, you get five cents back?

For everyone else BUT FN FAL---In order for a cop to request a search of your vehicle, he has to have PROBABLE CAUSE. They can search the immediate area that is in reach of the driver/passenger/suspect for weapons only. If they find anything else like drugs or illegal contraband during the weapons search they can use that as evidence against you. Anything else (trunk, back of the truck, trailer, closed boxes) has to have consent to search or a search warrant.

 

[Metro752]

..........In order for a cop to request a search of your vehicle, he has to have PROBABLE CAUSE. They can search the immediate area that is in reach of the driver/passenger/suspect for weapons only. .........

First of all, it all depends on the situation, and second of all if it's just a traffic stop for like going 5 over the speed limit, they cannot search with their hands, but with their eyes/flash light for anything that is in plain sight. If they see something, that gives them probable cause, and they can enter the vehicle and search with their hands.

There are so many variables and circumstances, it's really not worth debating. I mean variables and variables and situations and circumstances.

If I get pulled over, I will not be giving up any of my rights, because I know I am not doing anything wrong. I don't drive around at 1am with my parking lights on, or drive excessively fast, drink or smoke.

If Keystone Cop wants to look in my trunk, get a warrant, and enjoy the spare tire once you do. I'll be filing a harassment complaint. It's just principle. I have nothing to hide, but I am not giving up my rights.

 

[satpak77]

They CAN'T take your certificate from you. They may examine it, but THEY MUST RETURN IT TO YOU. If they plan on revoking it there is a process for that, and it does NOT involve them taking it from you during a ramp check. With a cop, I would state before I handed it to them that I was giving it to them for examination, but under the FAR's they must return it to me after inspection.

actually law enforcement can take it, if empowered to do so under state laws. If you think "they can't" go ahead and refuse to give it to them, and we will see who wins that battle.

 

[satpak77]

FN FAL--Ever notice that when you give your two-cents worth, you get five cents back?

For everyone else BUT FN FAL---In order for a cop to request a search of your vehicle, he has to have PROBABLE CAUSE. They can search the immediate area that is in reach of the driver/passenger/suspect for weapons only. If they find anything else like drugs or illegal contraband during the weapons search they can use that as evidence against you. Anything else (trunk, back of the truck, trailer, closed boxes) has to have consent to search or a search warrant.

A cop can request a consent search ANYTIME. He just has to ask. He does NOT need PC to request a consent search. Period, end of story.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/aug967.txt

http://www.aele.org/consent.html

One legal "prong" that most prosecutors like to be met is that prior to consent being GIVEN, the subject needs to be "free to leave" and not "not free to leave" as this affects the validity of consent.

An arrested person in the back of a patrol car can verbally thru the screen give consent to search his trunk, but this will likely be dismissed when it hits the court. A person who is being stopped for speeding, upon having his insurance and license returned to him, and is then asked for consent is another story.

 

[satpak77]

If they refuse, he always has the option of holding them until the sniffing dogs arrive.

Yes however some courts have determined this falls under an unlawful detention and dismissed any further charges. A driver can be detained for a "normal amount of time" (or similar langauge) that is need to conduct DL checks, registration checks, and conduct a field interview with the driver, and not much more.

Typically the driver is requested to voluntarily standby for the K-9. If he refuses, he is cut loose and followed by the police officer, and which point a secondary stop is made when the K-9 unit is in the area.

 

[satpak77]

bottom line

Stay out of trouble in the first place.....then

1) Never ever give consent

2) Be politefully cooperative but stupid. "Gosh officer, I want to help you out, but I think this is sum-thin for my lawyer."

3) Request an attorney IMMEDIATELY if the interview changes gears from "pleasant" to interoggative and you in your heart know you might be guilty of something. You can ask for an attorney at ANY TIME, it has nothing to do with Miranda.

 

[satpak77]

iflyabeech

iflyabeech:

What state did this occur in?

 

[FN FAL]

Stay out of trouble in the first place.....then

1) Never ever give consent

2) Be politefully cooperative but stupid. "Gosh officer, I want to help you out, but I think this is sum-thin for my lawyer."

3) Request an attorney IMMEDIATELY if the interview changes gears from "pleasant" to interoggative and you in your heart know you might be guilty of something. You can ask for an attorney at ANY TIME, it has nothing to do with Miranda.

And if they hit you with the, "But everybody else gives consent to search when we ask!"

The answer is a polite and simple, "I can't speak for everybody else, officer. However, I can speak for myself and the occupants of that car."

 

[satpak77]

And if they hit you with the, "But everybody else gives consent to search when we ask!"

The answer is a polite and simple, "I can't speak for everybody else, officer. However, I can speak for myself and the occupants of that car."

correct

 

[atrdriver]

actually law enforcement can take it, if empowered to do so under state laws. If you think "they can't" go ahead and refuse to give it to them, and we will see who wins that battle.

I believe that you are incorrect. An airmans certificate is issued by the federal government, and the FAR's have a way to get it revoked. I don't think that any state would make a law empowering them to seize an airmans certificate, just because it is a federally issued document. A DL is a different story.

 

[satpak77]

I believe that you are incorrect. An airmans certificate is issued by the federal government, and the FAR's have a way to get it revoked. I don't think that any state would make a law empowering them to seize an airmans certificate, just because it is a federally issued document. A DL is a different story.

You bring up valid observations however you are not correct. Say a soldier is coming home from the bar, weaving down the road, possible DUI, and gets stopped by the highway patrol. He does not have a DL on him, however he DOES have his military ID, you can bet your sweet fanny that the trooper involved will bring that to his car so he can call dispatch for records checks, etc.

EDITED

I re-read your earlier post about "take it but must give it back to you" and based on the point you made about "federally issued document" type stuff, I would say that the state/local could not seize it unless you were under arrest, then the seizure would be incident to arrest and go into personal inventory along with your belt, cell phone, wallet, etc before you are put in the jail cell. If not under arrest, then that is a gray area that only the courts could decide. You are dealing with an 1) FAA issued document, to 2) Operate an airplane into public airports with state/local law enforcement presence, with 3) State laws requiring possession of an airmens certificate.

So if a law enforcement officer physically takes and then holds your pilot's license from you, while you are "cut loose", this is likely an illegal seizure and something only the courts could decide on, based on the circumstances.

If the item seized is part of evidence in a criminal prosecution, the seizure was legal.
good points you made

later

 

[FN FAL]

I happened to be digging through North Carolina statutes and found this...even a prospective passenger has the right under law to demand to see a pilot's license...

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_63/GS_63-21.html

§ 63‑21. Possession and exhibition of license certificate.
The certificate of the license, herein required, shall be kept in the personal possession of the licensee when he is operating aircraft within this State and must be presented for inspection upon the demand of any passenger, any peace officer of this State, or any official, manager or person in charge of any airport or landing field in this State upon which he shall land. (1929, c. 190, s. 12.)

 

[Hold West]

I happened to be digging through North Carolina statutes and found this...even a prospective passenger has the right under law to demand to see a pilot's license...

Most states do - if you'll look, you'll see the snippets I quoted above from Minnesota and Texas included that provision.

 

[FN FAL]

Most states do - if you'll look, you'll see the snippets I quoted above from Minnesota and Texas included that provision.

Now we're up to three states. And I did see those, by the way.

What have we learned? That any law, whether federal or state, is written down somewhere and is a fact that can be referenced by anyone that has a computer or the ability to access a public library.

 

[Hold West]

Now we're up to three states. And I did see those, by the way.

What have we learned? That any law, whether federal or state, is written down somewhere and is a fact that can be referenced by anyone that has a computer or the ability to access a public library.

Ain't democracy, and the Internet, grand?

 

[AA717driver]

So, I guess this municipality has already done away with the meth labs, crack dealers, child molestors and every other criminal enterprise that SHOULD take precedence over an airplane with the wrong registration?

Kind of like those Nazis in TX going into a bar and busting people for being intoxicated on the premise that they will eventually drive home. Good police work. Really nipping crime in the bud.

Sorry, I lost any respect for cops when the various SWAT units (read SEAL Team wannabes) stood in the parking lot at Columbine H.S. arguing about who had the authority to run the operation.

If my kid had been one of those who bled out while that clusterf%@k was happening outside, I'd never rest until they were all working as Wal-mart greeters.TC