Ramped by 2 airport cops and 2 sheriffs. . .Accused me of a Felony!!!! No Kidding

[iflyabeech]

Then he'd tase you, you'd be arrested for impeding an officer/interfering with justice/disrupting investigative karma (or whatever catch all law they have on the books) and you'd be seeing the judge on Monday morning. In addition, don't eat the jailhouse chili and remember, you don't have to say boo...just name, rank and serial number.

You are right on this one.

 

[FN FAL]

A little nitpicky don't you think?

I'm not a lawyer, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night and they had "Legend of Billy Jack" on Movie Classics Channel. I'm sporting double wood.

 

[:-)]

I don't have the time, nor inclination (nor the knowhow for that matter) to do a legal search, but I seem to remember an article in the AOPA pilot years ago that stated that a LEO had the right to look at your certificate; but that you should hold it because it had been ruled that actually handing it to them constituted "surrender". Of course if you "surrender" your certificate, you don't have the right to get it back.

I don't care what FN thinks, If I ever had any idea that a LEO isn't working in my best interest, I will NOT hand over my certificate. If you think about it, what will they do? For that matter, what would have happened in the ramp check in question? Does the Sheriff have legal authority to arrest a pilot for not possesing a certificate? What if you honestly forgot it? For instance, my certificate stays in my flight case (in the crew room), but I occasionally fly light stuff; it is conceivable that I might fly without my piece of paper. Is that criminal?

In all practicality, we live in a police state, so we should all just go ahead and mail back the certificates today.

 

[leardawg]

Some years ago I had the experience of "retrieving" an airplane that had been spirited away to an airport in a different state (as part of a lawsuit involving a Flight School owner who left town in the middle of the night, leaving many students sucking wind). I flew the airplane back home with no incident. The next day, I'm sitting in the FBO when a Sherrif's car comes speeding up the road, onto the ramp, and around a corner into a concealed spot. A deputy and a plain-clothes detective jump out, all breathless, (there was a shotgun propped up in the seat between them!), and announce "there's possibly a stolen airplane on it's way in, a N@#$%^." I tell them "you mean that one in the Hangar?" The detective looks at the airplane, looks at his piece of paper, and says "Yeah! What the hell is going on here?! Do you know anything about this?" I told them I was the one who flew the airplane here (the previous day). They were ready to haul me in until I explained the situation. They decided it was a "civil matter" as far as they were concerned, and for the courts to decide. I never found out where their tip came from, although I suspect the "other side" in the lawsuit had something to do with it.

 

[iflyabeech]

I don't have the time, nor inclination (nor the knowhow for that matter) to do a legal search, but I seem to remember an article in the AOPA pilot years ago that stated that a LEO had the right to look at your certificate; but that you should hold it because it had been ruled that actually handing it to them constituted "surrender". Of course if you "surrender" your certificate, you don't have the right to get it back.

I don't care what FN thinks, If I ever had any idea that a LEO isn't working in my best interest, I will NOT hand over my certificate. If you think about it, what will they do? For that matter, what would have happened in the ramp check in question? Does the Sheriff have legal authority to arrest a pilot for not possesing a certificate? What if you honestly forgot it? For instance, my certificate stays in my flight case (in the crew room), but I occasionally fly light stuff; it is conceivable that I might fly without my piece of paper. Is that criminal?

In all practicality, we live in a police state, so we should all just go ahead and mail back the certificates today.

My POI said that it was definitely a good thing that I cooperated with them. They do have the authority to inspect your certificates and allowing them to inspect it does not constitute surrender. Period. Arresting someone for an FAA offense is a different ball of worms!

 

[FN FAL]

I don't care what FN thinks, If I ever had any idea that a LEO isn't working in my best interest, I will NOT hand over my certificate. If you think about it, what will they do?

Ever heard of the term "testilying"?

In theory, here's what could happen to you. Some super trooper decides he's going to mess with you over at the county aerodrome, mainly because he's got a beef with airplane noise and his house is located by the airport, right under the traffic pattern.

You land and as you're putting your bird away, he parks you in with his crown vicky and the squad dash cam just happens to be pointing away from where you are in the hangar.

He gets out of the car and asks for your certificates and you do the spoiled kid song and dance.

He decides he's not going to put up with it, so he says loud enough for the wireless microphone (it goes to the police dash cam), "push on me or touch me one more time and I'll TASE you!"

You get freaked and say something like, "WTF? I got rights dude!"

He says, "I told you not to push on me again!" He pulls out his trusty TASER and zaps you a couple of times, you drop your certificates on the ground and he arrests you for assaulting an officer.

When the dash cam tape is played in court, the police dash cam audio has the "conversation", a lot of scuffling and clicking sounds and your screaming on it. However, the video only shows the hanger alley.

http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_112220353.html

Of course, that kind of thing never happens.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

It just bothers me when they goose step back to the Police Car.

CE



(Who are you verking for....)

Well I-

LIAR!!!

 

[FN FAL]

It just bothers me when they goose step back to the Police Car.

CE



(Who are you verking for....)

Well I-

LIAR!!!

"Sign zee papers old man!"

"I cannot sign zee papers!"

"Why not old man?"

"Because you have broken all my fingers."

 

[SKYLAWYER]

My POI said that it was definitely a good thing that I cooperated with them. They do have the authority to inspect your certificates and allowing them to inspect it does not constitute surrender. Period. Arresting someone for an FAA offense is a different ball of worms!

He is absolutely correct. The FAA have been trained on the inspection/surrender topic. Since they have no arresting capability holding your certificate for inspection may be viewed as a little rude, but they do understand how some pilots view handing over thier certificates for inspection. The AOPA article mentioned above was very misleading by saying that you do not have to turn over your certificates to a LEO. The FAA may be upset, but a LEO will have you in cuffs for interfering with an investigation. You may get off but the headache and cost (400hr for someone descent) will really make you regret your actions. Think about this, the next time you are pulled over and the officer requests to SEE you drivers licence and registration, hold it up for him instead of handing it over to him. After the swelling goes down you can PM me and I'll give you the number to the guys in my firm with all the pull.
Iflyabeech is the perfect client. He is absolutely in the right so he participated and complied perfectly with the investigation. Had they done something wrong he would have been the angel in the courtroom and would probably walk away with some airframe paint money for his trouble. Had he been a a-hole about it, even though he was right a jury would have precluded his actions as suspicious and agreed with the cops for detaining him for further investigation. ESPECIALLY IN THIS WORLD OF POST SEPT 11 PARANOIA.

 

[FN FAL]

He is absolutely correct. The FAA have been trained on the inspection/surrender topic....ESPECIALLY IN THIS WORLD OF POST SEPT 11 PARANOIA.

I agree, from what the original poster said, it sounds like the police were just doing their job. According to the original poster's post, they didn't search his airplane and they allowed him to push it into a hanger while they sorted things out. Sounds like they were there to address the issue of the registration. If they would have been being jerks, they could have probably went a lot further than they did.

Also, a question to the original poster...did they ask to see your state aircraft registration?

 

[iflyabeech]

I agree, from what the original poster said, it sounds like the police were just doing their job. According to the original poster's post, they didn't search his airplane and they allowed him to push it into a hanger while they sorted things out. Sounds like they were there to address the issue of the registration. If they would have been being jerks, they could have probably went a lot further than they did.

Also, a question to the original poster...did they ask to see your state aircraft registration?

Well, I never said anything about pushing it into a hangar. . .I did continue tying it down and I took a couple of photos of my mom, who was still in the plane while they eyeballed me. They did not ask about state registration nor have I ever heard of a state registration. They did ask me for a Bill of Sale. (Who carries a Bill of Sale anyways?) If I didn't expain it earlier, the plainclothes sheriff officers were nice and answered my questions after the initial confrontation, while the airport cops were not very friendly. They all were about business though.

 

[Say Again Over]

Ryan = Freeway, CPD = Chicago Police

 

[:-)]

He is absolutely correct. The FAA have been trained on the inspection/surrender topic. Since they have no arresting capability holding your certificate for inspection may be viewed as a little rude, but they do understand how some pilots view handing over thier certificates for inspection. The AOPA article mentioned above was very misleading by saying that you do not have to turn over your certificates to a LEO. The FAA may be upset, but a LEO will have you in cuffs for interfering with an investigation. You may get off but the headache and cost (400hr for someone descent) will really make you regret your actions. Think about this, the next time you are pulled over and the officer requests to SEE you drivers licence and registration, hold it up for him instead of handing it over to him. After the swelling goes down you can PM me and I'll give you the number to the guys in my firm with all the pull.
Iflyabeech is the perfect client. He is absolutely in the right so he participated and complied perfectly with the investigation. Had they done something wrong he would have been the angel in the courtroom and would probably walk away with some airframe paint money for his trouble. Had he been a a-hole about it, even though he was right a jury would have precluded his actions as suspicious and agreed with the cops for detaining him for further investigation. ESPECIALLY IN THIS WORLD OF POST SEPT 11 PARANOIA.

OK, so a FAA inspector understands that we don't have to surrender, but an LEO doesn't. I'll go with that.

Now, what will the LEO do if I just tell him that I don't have a pilots license? Do any state or local governments have laws that make flying without a license illegal? If not, what basis would they have to demand to inspect your flying certification? Even more interesting to me is this, what are they looking for when they "inspect" my certificate? Are they looking to see if my private certificate allows me to fly a BBJ? Are they checking to see if I FILED A FLIGHT PLAN, so that they can report me to the nearest driveby media outlet.

The next time I get checked, I think that I'll just claim to be an illegal immigrant pilot. After I scream that I'm calling La Raza and GWB to report his racism, he'll leave me alone so fast that I'll not have time to shout donda mi abagodo.

You Americans are such a bunch of gato ninos
Pancho Villa

 

[rickair7777]

I don't care what FN thinks, If I ever had any idea that a LEO isn't working in my best interest, I will NOT hand over my certificate. If you think about it, what will they do? For that matter, what would have happened in the ramp check in question? Does the Sheriff have legal authority to arrest a pilot for not possesing a certificate? What if you honestly forgot it? For instance, my certificate stays in my flight case (in the crew room), but I occasionally fly light stuff; it is conceivable that I might fly without my piece of paper. Is that criminal?

FAR 61.3 says you must provide License, Medical, and ID to essentially any LEO, as well as the FAA, NTSB, TSA, Tooth Fairy, etc.. Failure to do so would be an FAA violation at least, but not something you would normally be arrested for. 61 isn't clear on the whole inspection vs. surrender issue, but I wouldn't want to push that with the 5-0.

Local/State laws may enhance or criminalize your refusal to comply, I don't know. But the LEOs would probably need evidence of a real crime to actually arrest you.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Local/State laws may enhance or criminalize your refusal to comply, I don't know. But the LEOs would probably need evidence of a real crime to actually arrest you.

Yes they would need evidence of a real crime to arrest you, however, detainment can last as much as 24 hours im many circumstances without arrest. You can be hauled downtown to answer questions and sit there talking to detectives, waiting for responses from the FAA, and all other sorts of administratived details without being arrested. Being put into handcuffs does not always constitute an arrest. So Barney fife can take as much of a day of your life away without charging you with anything. He would have to have reasonable suspicion but they can always make something reasonable up later. In the words of my best Law instructor " Common sense and law, are never to be put in the same sentence".

 

[iflyabeech]

OK, so a FAA inspector understands that we don't have to surrender, but an LEO doesn't. I'll go with that.

Now, what will the LEO do if I just tell him that I don't have a pilots license? Do any state or local governments have laws that make flying without a license illegal? If not, what basis would they have to demand to inspect your flying certification? Even more interesting to me is this, what are they looking for when they "inspect" my certificate? Are they looking to see if my private certificate allows me to fly a BBJ? Are they checking to see if I FILED A FLIGHT PLAN, so that they can report me to the nearest driveby media outlet.

The next time I get checked, I think that I'll just claim to be an illegal immigrant pilot. After I scream that I'm calling La Raza and GWB to report his racism, he'll leave me alone so fast that I'll not have time to shout donda mi abagodo.

You Americans are such a bunch of gato ninos
Pancho Villa

If an LEO took your certificates, you could just go online and get a replacement certificate or a temporary fax. Just because he has possession of it does not mean that you surrendered it.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Even more interesting to me is this, what are they looking for when they "inspect" my certificate? Are they looking to see if my private certificate allows me to fly a BBJ?

It could be just as simple as cross checking the name on the cerficate with the names on your other ID or the name you gave to them at the beginning of your conversations. The incidentals such as type rating usually mean nothing to them.

 

[iflyabeech]

Well, I posted this to get the word out so that others do not get caught in this situation and have an unhappy outcome.

Make sure your registrations are current and tell your friends the same!

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Well, I posted this to get the word out so that others do not get caught in this situation and have an unhappy outcome.

Make sure your registrations are current and tell your friends the same!

This thread has been one of the best I've seen in quite some time. I have been on this board for a long time but usually do not get involved in lots of the discussions. This thread has a lot of educational value for both owners/operators and certificate holders. Dealing with issues like these are annoying but it's always important to comply and then argue later. The TSA has the authority to inspect pilot ceritificates and I am just waiting for the day one of them tries to do it. (I think it has happened already) I forsee a lot of longtime airline pilots going ballistic. Iflyabeech did everything to perfection and you'll probably see this as just another story in the future. Using some of the other approaches talked about here could have had less than desirable outcomes. The FAA and LOE's all play for the same team. If your flagged as someone at the airport having a bad attitude, you'll be watched like a hawk. If you can fly the rest of your career with every detain in order congrads, but develop the attitude as a snob and they will be waiting for that one mistake.

 

[FN FAL]

detainment can last as much as 24 hours im many circumstances without arrest. You can be hauled downtown to answer questions and sit there talking to detectives, waiting for responses from the FAA, and all other sorts of administratived details without being arrested. Being put into handcuffs does not always constitute an arrest.

Nope, nope and nope.