bobbysamd
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Radio Pet Peeves
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ATCER
I have revised routing...
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Hey... great thread guys.
First I want to mention that 99% of you guys (and gals) have strong phraseology... During the course of the day there is always some less then perfect stuff and the occasional things that make no sense but thankfully that is the exception, not the norm.
Some points... if something happens and the pilot is heard using bad phraseology on the tapes the FAA (and NTSB if it's an accident) will stick it to you. No matter how great your abilites, ratings, etc ... you will get burned. Same for us... It would be a shame to get tangled up in a situation that could have been avoided by simply using proper phraseology. I have seen it happen many times.
Now... in training phraseology is a very big thing for us. We are graded very harshly on it and continue to be assesed. In your formal pilot training (airline training) is phraselogy covered ??? or is it assumed that it is mastered by the time you reach that level ??? Just curious...
One last thing... don't foget the NINERS ! Nine is a tough word to understand and is often confused with other words...
As far as funny things I have heard on the frequency... we don't have that kinda time...
First I want to mention that 99% of you guys (and gals) have strong phraseology... During the course of the day there is always some less then perfect stuff and the occasional things that make no sense but thankfully that is the exception, not the norm.
Some points... if something happens and the pilot is heard using bad phraseology on the tapes the FAA (and NTSB if it's an accident) will stick it to you. No matter how great your abilites, ratings, etc ... you will get burned. Same for us... It would be a shame to get tangled up in a situation that could have been avoided by simply using proper phraseology. I have seen it happen many times.
Now... in training phraseology is a very big thing for us. We are graded very harshly on it and continue to be assesed. In your formal pilot training (airline training) is phraselogy covered ??? or is it assumed that it is mastered by the time you reach that level ??? Just curious...
One last thing... don't foget the NINERS ! Nine is a tough word to understand and is often confused with other words...
As far as funny things I have heard on the frequency... we don't have that kinda time...
bobbysamd
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Phraseology
Great post from ATCER. Nice to get a viewpoint from the other side of the mike.
I'd say that one is assumed to have learned correct comm procedure, really, at the end of Private. For sure, at the end of Instrument. Flight instructors are supposed to drill their students thoroughly in correct comm procedure. I was a Riddle stage check pilot and gave plenty of Private students their stage checks. I cannot recall any who used incorrect phraselogy and failed to use "niner."
My theory is that recently-graduated 250-hour pilots are at their most vulnerable for picking up bad habits. Although they're flying to Commercial standards, the learning hasn't really sunk in completely because they really haven't flown that much or for that long. Also, so many of them think they have now learned everything there is to know about aviation and think they are the sharpest sticks in town when the exact 180 is true. They are out flying, free from instructor scrutiny, and hear incorrect phraseology or "cool" phraseology, or see "Top Gun" too many times (e.g., "Tally Ho!" and "No Joy"), and they slip away from their training, thinking that's how it's done in the real world.
Your comment about bad phraseology being thrown back at pilots involved in incidents should give one pause. I, for one, never thought of it that way. That's a great training point that I wish I knew when I was instructing. Thanks for sharing it.
Great post from ATCER. Nice to get a viewpoint from the other side of the mike.
I'd say that one is assumed to have learned correct comm procedure, really, at the end of Private. For sure, at the end of Instrument. Flight instructors are supposed to drill their students thoroughly in correct comm procedure. I was a Riddle stage check pilot and gave plenty of Private students their stage checks. I cannot recall any who used incorrect phraselogy and failed to use "niner."
My theory is that recently-graduated 250-hour pilots are at their most vulnerable for picking up bad habits. Although they're flying to Commercial standards, the learning hasn't really sunk in completely because they really haven't flown that much or for that long. Also, so many of them think they have now learned everything there is to know about aviation and think they are the sharpest sticks in town when the exact 180 is true. They are out flying, free from instructor scrutiny, and hear incorrect phraseology or "cool" phraseology, or see "Top Gun" too many times (e.g., "Tally Ho!" and "No Joy"), and they slip away from their training, thinking that's how it's done in the real world.
Your comment about bad phraseology being thrown back at pilots involved in incidents should give one pause. I, for one, never thought of it that way. That's a great training point that I wish I knew when I was instructing. Thanks for sharing it.
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ATCER
I have revised routing...
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Good phraseology will protect your A** ... I'm serious. When the tapes are pulled and reviewed the phraseology is gone over with a fine tooth comb.
It would be terrible to get a blemish on a perfect record for a situation you handled well, but some suit writes you up because you got sloppy speaking on the radio....
One other thing... we all should here what we sound like on the radio. I have heard myself and it is FAR different then one would think. That was some learning experience for me... I said what ??? What was I thinking ???
Fly Safe.
It would be terrible to get a blemish on a perfect record for a situation you handled well, but some suit writes you up because you got sloppy speaking on the radio....
One other thing... we all should here what we sound like on the radio. I have heard myself and it is FAR different then one would think. That was some learning experience for me... I said what ??? What was I thinking ???
Fly Safe.
Raskal
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Typhoon1244
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ATCER: I can tell you that in all the training I've received at my company, nobody has ever mentioned radio phraseology or technique. Kinda sad, really. I've even had F/O's who went through "bridge" programs who didn't know how to use a hand-held mike.
By the way, got a confession to make. I never used to say "niner" very much...thought it sounded corny. But after reading your post, I'll start using it!
Now, I've got a pet peeve for you, my fine friend from ATC: why do you guys go to the trouble of identifying jets as "Seven-thirty-sevens," "Dee-Cee Nines," "El Ten-Elevens," etc...then turn to another airplane and call it a "prop?" Why not call them what they are (Brasilia, Saab, ATR, etc.)? This is more of an ego thing, I suppose, but I used to hate the way the DFW guys would call me a "prop" with just a hint of disgust.
By the way, got a confession to make. I never used to say "niner" very much...thought it sounded corny. But after reading your post, I'll start using it!
Now, I've got a pet peeve for you, my fine friend from ATC: why do you guys go to the trouble of identifying jets as "Seven-thirty-sevens," "Dee-Cee Nines," "El Ten-Elevens," etc...then turn to another airplane and call it a "prop?" Why not call them what they are (Brasilia, Saab, ATR, etc.)? This is more of an ego thing, I suppose, but I used to hate the way the DFW guys would call me a "prop" with just a hint of disgust.
dsee8driver
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Windcheck!
Dieterly said: The day you get to fly a real jet, and not a baby jet, you'll find out why track miles and wind check becomes important.{/QUOTE]
Hmmmm Interesting, I fly a real jet. The response I get from many experienced Captains (10k+ in type) when I ask for a windcheck is: Why do you need one? You can't tell where the wind is coming from? (Bird is pointing 10 degree's to the right of runway) Also, you are gona land anyway!
In a "REAL JET" Windcheck is pretty useless unless you are in serious gusting conditions and need to adjust your Target speed.
My .02 worth
It's more than just the direction most heavy drivers are interested in. For example if the FM tells you (or your own observations) that the wind is 260/35 at 500' and tower is reporting 310/5 now you can plan accordingly (sp). Funny you don't know that, even if you don't fly FM equipped aircraft, even more scary is that your high time captains question you when you want a windcheck.
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Ali,
There is nothing improper about responding with your callsign and acknowledging a request to ident. If your ident isn't seen and you don't respond, it's reasonable to assume you didn't hear the request. Responding confirms that you heard, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Hasn't anybody ever pushed the ident button with no ident received? I have. The radio is for communication. Don't get so wrapped up in trying to be brief or perfect that sight is lost of the true purpose for the radio.
While I respect ATCR's position in his job, I have never heard of a single case in which improper phraseology was used to violate an individual...as it isn't a violation of the regulations. Grossly improper phraseology which is the direct or proximate cause of an accident is certain to be a pivotal point of an investigation. However, the use of slang or "oh" instead of "zero" isn't going to bring down the fury of the Gods. It just won't happen.
It may happen to controllers...after all, radio communications are at the very center of what they do. For pilots, nobody is going to come kick you in the groin or threaten to take away your pilot certificate for failing to comply in toto with the pilot controller glossary.
Any time there is doubt, get your point across, however you need to phrase it.
A good policy that's used in the fire industry when giving a target description or fire size up is that the receiving party must read back the information, but in different wording. One party describes it in his or her own words, and the receiving party does the same. This way the two come to an understanding...if the information is still the same after being read back differently and the two parties can still agree, the action proceeds.
We don't need to do that when reading back a clearance, as our terms are fairly uniform everywhere we go, and so are proceedures. However, there's a lot to be said for communicating effectively, rather than by rote. The point is , I suppose, that phraseology takes a back seat to exact communication. When in doubt, spit it out.
There is nothing improper about responding with your callsign and acknowledging a request to ident. If your ident isn't seen and you don't respond, it's reasonable to assume you didn't hear the request. Responding confirms that you heard, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Hasn't anybody ever pushed the ident button with no ident received? I have. The radio is for communication. Don't get so wrapped up in trying to be brief or perfect that sight is lost of the true purpose for the radio.
While I respect ATCR's position in his job, I have never heard of a single case in which improper phraseology was used to violate an individual...as it isn't a violation of the regulations. Grossly improper phraseology which is the direct or proximate cause of an accident is certain to be a pivotal point of an investigation. However, the use of slang or "oh" instead of "zero" isn't going to bring down the fury of the Gods. It just won't happen.
It may happen to controllers...after all, radio communications are at the very center of what they do. For pilots, nobody is going to come kick you in the groin or threaten to take away your pilot certificate for failing to comply in toto with the pilot controller glossary.
Any time there is doubt, get your point across, however you need to phrase it.
A good policy that's used in the fire industry when giving a target description or fire size up is that the receiving party must read back the information, but in different wording. One party describes it in his or her own words, and the receiving party does the same. This way the two come to an understanding...if the information is still the same after being read back differently and the two parties can still agree, the action proceeds.
We don't need to do that when reading back a clearance, as our terms are fairly uniform everywhere we go, and so are proceedures. However, there's a lot to be said for communicating effectively, rather than by rote. The point is , I suppose, that phraseology takes a back seat to exact communication. When in doubt, spit it out.
Rush Limbaugh
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ATCER,
I only have one ATC peeve.
The piece of FOD I'm flying these days only has one radio and it's UHF. So don't tell me to contact center on 127.35. It seems to me that since there aren't very many airplanes that only have uniform radio's, it wouldn't be hard for a controller know that and issue the proper freq the first time and cut out the extra "need a uniform freq" comm. But for real airplanes that are capable of uniform, victor and fm, it is awesome to get told, "contact center on 243.0 or 121.5." Since the range of uniform is lower than victor, when the controller doesn't respond, you can flip over to the victor freq, check in and tell the controller you'll be up on uniform if he needs you and then go back to interflight freq and continue whatever conversation you were having. But low and behold, almost immediately after checking on victor, the controller is calling you on uniform and he can hear you when you respond. Could it be that he just had his uniform volume turned down?
Every ATC facility in the US does some great work (except Salt Lake approach). Keep it up and tell your bro's in the land of many wives to pay their tithing and then get their act together.
I only have one ATC peeve.
The piece of FOD I'm flying these days only has one radio and it's UHF. So don't tell me to contact center on 127.35. It seems to me that since there aren't very many airplanes that only have uniform radio's, it wouldn't be hard for a controller know that and issue the proper freq the first time and cut out the extra "need a uniform freq" comm. But for real airplanes that are capable of uniform, victor and fm, it is awesome to get told, "contact center on 243.0 or 121.5." Since the range of uniform is lower than victor, when the controller doesn't respond, you can flip over to the victor freq, check in and tell the controller you'll be up on uniform if he needs you and then go back to interflight freq and continue whatever conversation you were having. But low and behold, almost immediately after checking on victor, the controller is calling you on uniform and he can hear you when you respond. Could it be that he just had his uniform volume turned down?
Every ATC facility in the US does some great work (except Salt Lake approach). Keep it up and tell your bro's in the land of many wives to pay their tithing and then get their act together.
Typhoon1244
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2000Flyer,
We've had this discussion many times at our airport. Someone will say "Any planes in the area, please advise." There will be half a dozen planes in the area, maybe more, and not one person responds to that request. They've been giving their positions all along. You don't get 10 pilots to check in with you because you weren't listening as you approached the airport. If you base you approach to the pattern on the lack of responses you get, you will be mighty surprised to find all that traffic. Keep you eyes open, listen on the unicom, and look for the guys without radios. sure, I can believe youmight alert someone every now and then that has been lazy with his radio calls, but for the most part, your request is ignored.
We've had this discussion many times at our airport. Someone will say "Any planes in the area, please advise." There will be half a dozen planes in the area, maybe more, and not one person responds to that request. They've been giving their positions all along. You don't get 10 pilots to check in with you because you weren't listening as you approached the airport. If you base you approach to the pattern on the lack of responses you get, you will be mighty surprised to find all that traffic. Keep you eyes open, listen on the unicom, and look for the guys without radios. sure, I can believe youmight alert someone every now and then that has been lazy with his radio calls, but for the most part, your request is ignored.
ATCER
I have revised routing...
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Typhoon1244 - nothing personal against the props (LOL) ... you hear the types of jets because of wake turbulence... different jets have different criteria for wake avoidance. Props on the other hand are all the same as far as criteria goes ... they have uniform seperation from each other and all types of jets. Also... for arrivals and departured props are lumped together where jets will see different procedures for different types.
Rush - as for you it's probably just an oversight... the remarks section would show you as HF only... just something that gets missed... very few of you guys up there. We monitor many frequencies that are on shout lines (set on speaker) air to ground, ground to ground, etc. To answer, some buttons have to me pushed to transmit on them so that explains the delay... also we may be on another line... if you have a request me may have to call several people to work it all out, then enter info in the computer before answering someone.
Hope the info helps...
Rush - as for you it's probably just an oversight... the remarks section would show you as HF only... just something that gets missed... very few of you guys up there. We monitor many frequencies that are on shout lines (set on speaker) air to ground, ground to ground, etc. To answer, some buttons have to me pushed to transmit on them so that explains the delay... also we may be on another line... if you have a request me may have to call several people to work it all out, then enter info in the computer before answering someone.
Hope the info helps...
ibaflyer
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OK...OK.....I have a couple of my own. I actually heard this yesterday.
APP: Cheyene XXXX ident.
Cheyene: "Approach, we're flashing the camera".
APP: What?
then there is the ever popular.
"AAAANNNNNNDDDD xxxx unicom, skyhawk 1234 is 3.4 miles out. Any traffic in the area please advise".
Other traffic: Out where? North South East or West from the airport?
Skyhawk 1234: "Stand by"
What an idiot............
APP: Cheyene XXXX ident.
Cheyene: "Approach, we're flashing the camera".
APP: What?
then there is the ever popular.
"AAAANNNNNNDDDD xxxx unicom, skyhawk 1234 is 3.4 miles out. Any traffic in the area please advise".
Other traffic: Out where? North South East or West from the airport?
Skyhawk 1234: "Stand by"
What an idiot............
Typhoon1244
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Re: When calling clearance...
Speaking of clearance delivery, we've all heard the interesting ways the electronic ATIS voice pronounces certain words, right? So help me, I actually heard a guy call for clearance in Atlanta--from the tentative quality of his voice, I'm guessing he was a new-hire--and say "Clearance, Candler One-Twenty-Three to Chattanooga, ramp four with information wilkey."
I laughed so hard I almost spotted.
I am so glad I'm not the only one who's tired of that!4fanman said:
Speaking of clearance delivery, we've all heard the interesting ways the electronic ATIS voice pronounces certain words, right? So help me, I actually heard a guy call for clearance in Atlanta--from the tentative quality of his voice, I'm guessing he was a new-hire--and say "Clearance, Candler One-Twenty-Three to Chattanooga, ramp four with information wilkey."
I laughed so hard I almost spotted.
NJA Capt
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Anne said:
Ignore if you like, but it's YOUR life as well as mine this might save. Believe me, YOU will be a lot more surprised than me, when we blow past you on downwind because we didn't know to expect/see you. And don't get ticked off when we make a straight in approach on a VMC ILS/GPS approach because YOU didn't identify yourself. If you answer, I will be more than happy to fly a traffic pattern and get in line.
As a jet approaches your uncontrolled fields at 250 kts, he is going to cover the last 30 miles in the time it takes your single engine to fly one lap in the pattern. Yes, we do try to listen to the freq ahead of time, but, as was mentioned, people at 20 other airports are talking all over each other and we can't make heads or tales of what YOU are saying. Or another side, ATC doesn't turn us loose until we are almost on top of the airport and we haven't heard that ONE callout you made 5 minutes ago...because you've only moved 2 miles since then, right?
When small GA aircraft are in the pattern, how many of you are looking above and behind your aircraft for traffic (while in the pattern)? Might be something to think about, eh? That's where we'll be.
If ANYONE makes a query on unicom freq, you better darn well answer it!!!!!!!! unless you would prefer a close encounter by someone who didn't know you were there.
TCAS is a great tool. But it is only good IF everyone has a xponder (on) and mode C (on).
My thanks go out to the CFIs that have pointed out J3s and crop dusters (that didn't have radios of there own) when I asked "any traffic please advise?"
A lot more things are happening when people approach an airport at high rates of speed. We are looking out the window, and we are trying to enter the pattern without endangering ourselves or someone else. The least you can do is respond.
Another peeve?
"Cessna downwind 5."
Cessna? C150 or C421?
Downwind? Downwind where?
Got an N-number?
My pet peeve is to hear pilots at airports without an operating control tower refer to the runway as "active." I hear a lot of pilots, for example, say they are departing the "active." If I'm approaching the airport and AWOS indicates winds that would favor either runway (calm or a direct crosswind), I have no idea from which runway the other pilot is departing. Pilots can avoid a lot of confusion if they refer specifically to the runway they are using.
An overheard conversation I thought was funny:
I was in contact with Shreveport approach when ATC told a departing aircraft to contact approach on xxx.x. The young pilot (evident by the sound of his voice) repsonded, "Why would I want to contact approach when I am leaving?" ATC quickly responded telling the pilot to contact departure on the same frequency.
An overheard conversation I thought was funny:
I was in contact with Shreveport approach when ATC told a departing aircraft to contact approach on xxx.x. The young pilot (evident by the sound of his voice) repsonded, "Why would I want to contact approach when I am leaving?" ATC quickly responded telling the pilot to contact departure on the same frequency.
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