Questions for the UNICAL pilots.

[AWACoff]

hmmm I wonder what your solution would have been for them??

Easy, I would have given them zero credit for status and category and some credit for their longevity.

The arbitrators gave the LUAL furloughs as much credit for status and category as an active LCAL pilot who was never furloughed and 35% of their longevity. Enjoy your windfall and try not to gloat too much.

 

[igneousy2]

A lot of pilots on both sides feel they got a raw deal. Some more than others. Below is a very direct opinion in the the final award from three very knowledgeable and respected arbitrators.


"In our considered judgment, both the methodology of the CAL Committee and its
resultant proposed ISL are incompatible with the revised ALPA Merger Policy. Aside
from the windfall inequities generated by using an April 1, 2013 snapshot date, total
disregard of the longevity factor cannot possibly be justified in the factual circumstances
of this case. Not surprisingly, the ISL produced by the CAL Committee's fatally defective
methodology is neither fair nor equitable."

So going from no-job to having a job is not a windfall? I'm glad it was decided this way as being at a very senior pilot group compared to a lot of other airlines it is too my advantage that longevity matters...however, that is not the precedent of previous arbitrators.

 

[densoo]

That's the error of your thinking. CAL brought a third of the widebodies to the merger hence the UAL guys at the same percentage has less access to the larger aircraft. If CAL brought the same number of widebodies then there wouldnt be a problem!

When a UAL pilot goes from reserve FO to CA, that "career expectations" jump comes at the expense of many CAL pilots' career expectations through stagnation and possible regression. CALALPA failed to argue this point of merger policy and this is the result.

 

[Andy]

Easy, I would have given them zero credit for status and category and some credit for their longevity.

The arbitrators gave the LUAL furloughs as much credit for status and category as an active LCAL pilot who was never furloughed and 35% of their longevity. Enjoy your windfall and try not to gloat too much.

I had more than 4 years' longevity and on furlough. I got dovetailed with LCAL pilots with 2 years' longevity and on furlough. All based on 10/2010 snapshot date.
The ruling is a windfall for LCAL pilots on the bottom of the list.

 

[eaglesview]

^^^^^^ what he said!!

 

[eaglesview]

Easy, I would have given them zero credit for status and category and some credit for their longevity.

The arbitrators gave the LUAL furloughs as much credit for status and category as an active LCAL pilot who was never furloughed and 35% of their longevity. Enjoy your windfall and try not to gloat too much.

I would not call it a windfall therefore no gloating. I would not say we won but I would say your merger committee was out to lunch. Your side approached this like they were buying a used car...shoot for the moon and see what happens. The reality is there were guidelines that were to be used. Your side ignored them. See the paragraph at the bottom of page 22 in the reward.
Our side put forth a proposal that used the guidelines that were present in the ALPA merger policy. As a result the arbitrators used our proposal with nothing as a counterpoint because the CO proposal was ridiculous. To many CO pilots credit most of the ones I spoke with knew this but stated " we will meet in the middle." That was not the rules of engagement.
What is interesting is a large group of our pilots actually moved up the list even when compared to our own proposal. This tells me our side should have asked for more.
In the end we didn't, win but your side did nothing to help your cause. If I was a CO pilot I would want answers from the merger committee. Ours has already sent out a video explaining what we asked for and what we got. What has your side communicated with you?

 

[SimHo]

SLI's, disputes. I've seen that somewhere before...

Move on guys. It's a new world. We all get screwed when our
plan isn't played out like we mapped out when we got hired.
Pissing and moaning is only going to better the senority of the
pilot behind you.

Why does every pilot who gets hired by a major airline automatically shed their balls? If CAL or UAL guys feel they got screwed, they need to grow a new pair and do something about it!!

 

[jtm2222]

A furloughed guy who hasn't worked in a decade went above working cal guys. Complete horsesh*t. Also, about 500 92 ual guys in the middle didn't have one cal guy between them. How do u explain that? F*ck alpa. I'll never wear their retarded pin again.

 

[bpapaDC8]

That's painting the CAL list with too broad a stroke. I was always forecasted to make WB captain at CAL from day one, well before any UAL merger. The UAL aircraft did nothing to improve my career prospects. It has to do with the age we are when hired. I got hired in my mid-thirties and felt screwed compared to the guys hired before me who where much younger (mid-twenties). So what there's always someone younger. You get over it. Now, in my mid forties, I will recover from this raping, but it will take 15 years. I get that some UAL guys would never recover, were the arbitrators to accept the CAL proposal. But they never even came close to considering something in the middle as a resolution. They handed our seniority over on a silver platter. I moved back double-digits, while UAL pilots moved up the same amount. A net swing of 30+%.

Age as a consideration isn't mentioned anywhere in ALPA MP. So if they rejected the CAL MC's methodology because it didn't follow ALPA MP, which it apparently didn't, how can they use methodology outside the charter of ALPA MP in another area (age)?

Anyway, time to move on.

I disagree. In general, the LCAL pilots gained access to 77 wide bodies and will gain far more time in the left seat of those aircraft. Generalizing again, the bottom group of the UAL list (myself included) will not have access to those Captain seats we would have held as we now have seat blockers ahead of us. No one is saying age is or should part of merger policy. Just looking at the consequences of the ISL for myself and LUAL pilots like me.

It is what it is...moving on.

 

[Dan Roman]

. about 500 92 ual guys in the middle didn't have one cal guy between them. How do u explain that? F*ck alpa. I'll never wear their retarded pin again.

Seems to me both airlines would have had periods of hiring large blocks of pilots. Obviously at different times. So why would some hired in a 92 hiring spree have a different relative position as others in the same block of hires?
As far as ALPA goes, you would have been a lot worse off without it. Sounds like you screwed by over reaching from your merger committee? Hardly ALPA's fault.
Funny thing about mergers. ALPA is supposed to represent ALL the pilots. There are always individuals who thing ALPA was there to represent just them.

 

[eaglesview]

A furloughed guy who hasn't worked in a decade went above working cal guys. Complete horsesh*t. Also, about 500 92 ual guys in the middle didn't have one cal guy between them. How do u explain that? F*ck alpa. I'll never wear their retarded pin again.

That's comical. ALPA did this to you? Have you asked any questions of your merger committee? Have you asked why they didn't even know the basic guidelines?

The guys in the middle are there due to the longevity part of the equation. Again that was proposed by a merger committee that actually read the merger policy before putting in there proposal. Please ask your merger committee why they were so ignorant about the process before you assume some outside force " did this to you."

 

[SWA Bubba]

Seems to me both airlines would have had periods of hiring large blocks of pilots. Obviously at different times. So why would some hired in a 92 hiring spree have a different relative position as others in the same block of hires?
As far as ALPA goes, you would have been a lot worse off without it. Sounds like you screwed by over reaching from your merger committee? Hardly ALPA's fault.
Funny thing about mergers. ALPA is supposed to represent ALL the pilots. There are always individuals who thing ALPA was there to represent just them.

Hey Dan,

Individuals aside, do you really believe that ALPA represents all of its pilot groups the same? That is, equally and fairly? And I'm speaking generally; not pointing to any specific case.

Bubba

 

[Furloughed80]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furloughed80
Andy,

How many voluntary furloughs were there at UA?

Anyone??

 

[Flopgut]

That's comical. ALPA did this to you? Have you asked any questions of your merger committee? Have you asked why they didn't even know the basic guidelines?

The guys in the middle are there due to the longevity part of the equation. Again that was proposed by a merger committee that actually read the merger policy before putting in there proposal. Please ask your merger committee why they were so ignorant about the process before you assume some outside force " did this to you."

It was messy for sure, but that so many UAL ALPA guys are now completely on board with merger policy, bought to make more than a few pilots think Brucia might deserve a little credit.

I'm not throwing out an insult here. Not really even directing that at you, I know you understand a code. But are you not surprised at least a little at how your fellow UAL pilots now feel merger policy is gospel?

 

[eaglesview]

It was messy for sure, but that so many UAL ALPA guys are now completely on board with merger policy, bought to make more than a few pilots think Brucia might deserve a little credit.

I'm not throwing out an insult here. Not really even directing that at you, I know you understand a code. But are you not surprised at least a little at how your fellow UAL pilots now feel merger policy is gospel?

No I am not surprised because that is all that was talked about in the cockpits over the last few months. We felt we had an advantage in longevity and the number of heavies on our property. We were unsure about status as I would venture to say CO has as many Captains as we do (I admit I do not know the numbers ) It was all a mystery as an arbitration can go many different directions as you know.

 

[St. Nic]

Well some current hatchet math says I was roughly 95% of working pilots on the CAL list 3 years ago being merged in with someone about 105% on the UAL list. More importantly, I am currently 80% on the CAL list with 6 straight years of employment being merged behind someone who is still 105% on their list and hasn't worked at their airline in almost 5 years. To say this is the biggest screwjob in the history of ISLs is an exaggeration, as I know TWA got it worse but I don't know of anyone else.

As for question #2, the bottom guy at UAL is being integrated somewhere around a guy in the 75% neighborhood at CAL, not sure where he was 3 years ago though.

US got screwed more

 

[Ex737Driver]

US got screwed more

Dude, this so opens up the door for USAir pilots if the merger with AA is ever allowed.

 

[get2flyin]

US got screwed more

Well, I actually expected it wouldn't take anywhere near this long for an Eastie to try and make this about them. Nearly 36 hours! I'm so impressed with your restraint!

 

[Flopgut]

No I am not surprised because that is all that was talked about in the cockpits over the last few months. We felt we had an advantage in longevity and the number of heavies on our property. We were unsure about status as I would venture to say CO has as many Captains as we do (I admit I do not know the numbers ) It was all a mystery as an arbitration can go many different directions as you know.

When I came to CAL I figured we would be the least likely to prevail well in a ALPA merger. We weren't even ALPA. When we joined I thought it would still be more difficult for us. If this merger had been 15 years ago we would have been lucky to have been stapled. Certainly we're the least likely airline to have entered into a deal with the like of UAL and have come out the way we did. 15 years ago we would be looking for jobs instead of looking at opportunity. I know the guys senior to me remember this, I don't think the guys junior to me do. I don't think our merger guys are baffoons that didnt know the policy. I think everything they did was to garner a certain reaction out of your side.

Anyway, what has to happen now is for us to start acting like a union. The rank and file need to pull the same direction. There should be no reason we don't take mgt to the woodshed on our next contract. I know you understand this.

 

[Shrek]

Anyway, what has to happen now is for us to start acting like a union. The rank and file need to pull the same direction. There should be no reason we don't take mgt to the woodshed on our next contract. I know you understand this..............

THIS ..........