Questions for the UNICAL pilots.

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan,

Individuals aside, do you really believe that ALPA represents all of its pilot groups the same? That is, equally and fairly? And I'm speaking generally; not pointing to any specific case.

Bubba

Hi Bubba,
The answer is YES. Obviously we, Hawaiian, are a relatively small ALPA carrier but our history with them is huge. Just prior to deregulation we led the industry in DC-9 pay. It was always either Allegheny, North Central or us depending whose contract was most recently signed. Than deregulation hit and it has been a roller coaster ride to put it mildly. Concessions, two bankruptcies, two mergers attempted by Aloha and a complete shift in air travel patterns to Hawaii.
Through it all ALPA has been a huge resource. Thanks to ALPA we have entered our present era of prosperity with an industry leading contract (when we signed it) and now that the large ALPA carriers are pulling ahead, we should be able to ride those coattails when our next contract comes up. Another example of how ALPA has served us. Despite past managements best efforts and two bankruptcies, we hung onto to our industry leading retirement. Our old A plan was saved, our new DC plan is the highest in the industry I believe (15%). I firmly believe without ALPA we would not have the retirement plan we have nor the payscale. A small independent union simply could not have weathered what we did utilizing the resources of ALPA nor could we have gotten the contract that we now enjoy.
So that's my take based on one small ALPA carriers experience.

Oh, and it was thanks to ALPA our inter island guys don't taxi as fast as they used to....I kid I kid!

 

[Dan Roman]

Specific to the one posters anger at ALPA after a merger I'll give you an example of what I am talking about in my original post here. When Aloha tried to merge with us under Greg Brenneman it got very serious and ALPA was deeply involved. Even the current president came over here (Duane Woerth, regardless what anyone thinks of him). I remember some HA pilots being quite angry and making the statement, ALPA's not representing us! My perception was of course not, AQ was ALPA too, they represented all of us. I couldn't fathom how some thought ALPA should choose sides in an ALPA/ALPA merger. In addition, if it had happened, i would have wanted the surviving airline to have as equatable a seniority list as possible. Greater harmony and doing what's right for everyone involved meant more to me than a few numbers one way or the other.

 

[Dan Roman]

When I came to CAL I figured we would be the least likely to prevail well in a ALPA merger. We weren't even ALPA. When we joined I thought it would still be more difficult for us. If this merger had been 15 years ago we would have been lucky to have been stapled. Certainly we're the least likely airline to have entered into a deal with the like of UAL and have come out the way we did. 15 years ago we would be looking for jobs instead of looking at opportunity. I know the guys senior to me remember this, I don't think the guys junior to me do. I don't think our merger guys are baffoons that didnt know the policy. I think everything they did was to garner a certain reaction out of your side.

Anyway, what has to happen now is for us to start acting like a union. The rank and file need to pull the same direction. There should be no reason we don't take mgt to the woodshed on our next contract. I know you understand this.

Flopgut, I must give you a tip of the hat for sounding as reasonable and balanced as you do. Mergers usually bring out the worst in anyone. You seem to have gone the other way.

 

[Andy]

A furloughed guy who hasn't worked in a decade went above working cal guys. Complete horsesh*t.

Complete BS. All pilots furloughed post-911 had to either accept recall in 2007 or be removed from the seniority list. I know several who were removed from the seniority list.
All LUAL pilots on furlough on snapshot date (10/2010) were furloughed in 2008 and 2009. Just about every twice furloughed LUAL pilot had more longevity than LCAL pilots who were on furlough as of snapshot date. In spite of that, MANY of those furloughed LCAL pilots got a huge windfall.

The problem with some LCAL pilots is that they think the snapshot date should have been in 2013 and the arbitrators should have awarded LCAL's insane SLI proposal. The reason why LCAL has been growing and LUAL has been shrinking is that management has been whipsawing the two groups, shifting flying from LUAL to LCAL ala Lorenzo. There's a reason why he's nicknamed FLIBS.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Complete BS. All pilots furloughed post-911 had to either accept recall in 2007 or be removed from the seniority list. I know several who were removed from the seniority list.
All LUAL pilots on furlough on snapshot date (10/2010) were furloughed in 2008 and 2009. Just about every twice furloughed LUAL pilot had more longevity than LCAL pilots who were on furlough as of snapshot date. In spite of that, MANY of those furloughed LCAL pilots got a huge windfall.

The problem with some LCAL pilots is that they think the snapshot date should have been in 2013 and the arbitrators should have awarded LCAL's insane SLI proposal. The reason why LCAL has been growing and LUAL has been shrinking is that management has been whipsawing the two groups, shifting flying from LUAL to LCAL ala Lorenzo. There's a reason why he's nicknamed FLIBS.

Elaborate as to what flying has been shifted. Specifically where UAL has been harmed by flying actually taken from UAL and given to CAL where there has been no reciprocity. Whatever you can come up with will in no way match the loss of CA seats with the ISL on the aircraft that were ordered BEFORE 10/1/2010.

 

[Andy]

Elaborate as to what flying has been shifted. Specifically where UAL has been harmed by flying actually taken from UAL and given to CAL where there has been no reciprocity. Whatever you can come up with will in no way match the loss of CA seats with the ISL on the aircraft that were ordered BEFORE 10/1/2010.

Seriously? You haven't noticed that LUAL 757s are being retired and replaced with LCAL 737s? This has been going on for a while; you'd have to be unconscious to not notice.

As far as LCAL aircraft ordered before 10/1/2010, LUAL cash is paying a large percentage for those aircraft. LUAL could have used that cash to buy their own aircraft, but there was no need to - LCAL ordered too many aircraft as a standalone airline.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut, I must give you a tip of the hat for sounding as reasonable and balanced as you do. Mergers usually bring out the worst in anyone. You seem to have gone the other way.

I think it was a pretty clean deal. And I think my side can handle more of a perceived set back than our counterparts. Senior UAL pilots are a pretty fragile bunch at this point, and I can't say I blame them. We'll see now if they can elevate themselves above name calling and internal gamesmanship.

Big picture: Everybody has a seat. No one is without a job and each of us has some upward mobility. That is not always the case.

 

[Andy]

And I think my side can handle more of a perceived set back than our counterparts.

Please. I've already called out two LCAL pilots on these two threads for untruthful posts. Why aren't you calling these guys out when their posts are obvious BS? Like this one:

At mad I was 500ish from upgrade, now I am 4000.... I don't call that a windfall, I call it a beat down!

Or how about the captain who posted on CAL forums that he's going to deny the jumpseat to LUAL furloughees? Not at all professional.

Me? I lost 2% relative seniority today and around 12% when I retire. Plus, that carveout of furlough credit (LOA 25) that gives everyone credit for time on furlough except twice furloughed LUAL pilots. I'm not happy about more than a few things but that's life.

I'm ready to move on but I'm not going to sit idly by while LCAL pilots post outright lies. From outward appearances, many LCAL pilots aren't taking the SLI very well at all.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm ready to move on but I'm not going to sit idly by while LCAL pilots post outright lies. From outward appearances, many LCAL pilots aren't taking the SLI very well at all.

I think they're taking this a lot better than LUAL pilots would have taken some version of the LCAL proposal prevailing. If that had happened, the airline would be shutting down and ALPA would already be off the property. Tell me I'm wrong Andy?

Just let em vent. You can make a few points if you want, but try to sort the dumb stuff out. The quoted portion you wrote to me isn't so much a lie, it's a pilot who doesn't understand the process and is just rambling.

 

[eaglesview]

I think they're taking this a lot better than LUAL pilots would have taken some version of the LCAL proposal prevailing. If that had happened, the airline would be shutting down and ALPA would already be off the property. Tell me I'm wrong Andy?

Just let em vent. You can make a few points if you want, but try to sort the dumb stuff out. The quoted portion you wrote to me isn't so much a lie, it's a pilot who doesn't understand the process and is just rambling.

I don't think you are wrong. We would have not taken it sitting down. I wonder why that is? My opinion, and please feel free to tell me I am wrong, is the CO group is used to getting screwed. They have almost become numb to it. Jeff S , and you were correct about what a piece of work he is, has been calling the shots without an appropriate amount of resistance.