Questions for the UNICAL pilots.

[joevollers]

Obviously folks are upset, with the CAL pilots seemingly feeling more burned. A couple of questions:

If you were CAL, what was your CAL system seniority percentage at the snapshot date, and what is it on the sli award?

Also, where did the most junior pilot active at UAL on the snapshot date slot in compared to the CAL guys?

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Well some current hatchet math says I was roughly 95% of working pilots on the CAL list 3 years ago being merged in with someone about 105% on the UAL list. More importantly, I am currently 80% on the CAL list with 6 straight years of employment being merged behind someone who is still 105% on their list and hasn't worked at their airline in almost 5 years. To say this is the biggest screwjob in the history of ISLs is an exaggeration, as I know TWA got it worse but I don't know of anyone else.

As for question #2, the bottom guy at UAL is being integrated somewhere around a guy in the 75% neighborhood at CAL, not sure where he was 3 years ago though.

 

[joevollers]

Well some current hatchet math says I was roughly 95% of working pilots on the CAL list 3 years ago being merged in with someone about 105% on the UAL list. More importantly, I am currently 80% on the CAL list with 6 straight years of employment being merged behind someone who is still 105% on their list and hasn't worked at their airline in almost 5 years. To say this is the biggest screwjob in the history of ISLs is an exaggeration, as I know TWA got it worse but I don't know of anyone else.

As for question #2, the bottom guy at UAL is being integrated somewhere around a guy in the 75% neighborhood at CAL, not sure where he was 3 years ago though.

Thanks Dewey. Do you know where you stand relative to all the pilots who were active on both lists 3 years ago?

If the most junior active UAL guy@ snapshot is significantly higher than you are, I would agree you got hosed.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

As said above I was around 95% on our list when the snapshot occured. I had 200 and change or about 5% left below me after our furlough. Due to their larger size the bottom 5% of UAL pilots would number between 300-350. Every one of those pilots plus around 250 furloughs were placed senior to me, equalling about a 600 number loss from where I was 3 years ago and almost 1500 number loss from where I am now after pre-merger planned growth and aircraft orders. I guess I should consider myself fortunate as at least UAL had over 200 less furloughs put ahead of me as they wanted! (sarcasm)

 

[Andy]

Bottom LUAL invol furlough was hired 6/14/99. Dovetailed between two LCAL 1/9/07 hires.

I'm a June 2000 hire; dovetailed between two LCAL 12/18/2007 hires. Both were on furlough as of the 10/2010 arbitrators' snapshot date.

I got hammered on where I'll be on the list on retirement date. Went from ~3000 to ~6300.

 

[bpapaDC8]

Funny, the CAL guys now have access to widebodies they never would have had as a standalone. The UAL guys from '97 and later are blended with CAL guys hired in '05 and later who are for the most part younger. In 20 years, the top of the new United seniority list will be dominated by these same younger CAL pilots.

As a UAL pilot,I went from holding the 747 when I retire to holding the 767 with this SLI. Hardly a decimation for the CAL guys, lol.

 

[RT8VA]

deleted

 

[SimHo]

Every CAL pilot who feels they got screwed (as most of us do) needs to file a dispute.

 

[BigRed1]

A lot of pilots on both sides feel they got a raw deal. Some more than others. Below is a very direct opinion in the the final award from three very knowledgeable and respected arbitrators.


"In our considered judgment, both the methodology of the CAL Committee and its
resultant proposed ISL are incompatible with the revised ALPA Merger Policy. Aside
from the windfall inequities generated by using an April 1, 2013 snapshot date, total
disregard of the longevity factor cannot possibly be justified in the factual circumstances
of this case. Not surprisingly, the ISL produced by the CAL Committee's fatally defective
methodology is neither fair nor equitable."

 

[SimHo]

A lot of pilots on both sides feel they got a raw deal. Some more than others. Below is a very direct opinion in the the final award from three very knowledgeable and respected arbitrators.


"In our considered judgment, both the methodology of the CAL Committee and its
resultant proposed ISL are incompatible with the revised ALPA Merger Policy. Aside
from the windfall inequities generated by using an April 1, 2013 snapshot date, total
disregard of the longevity factor cannot possibly be justified in the factual circumstances
of this case. Not surprisingly, the ISL produced by the CAL Committee's fatally defective
methodology is neither fair nor equitable."

Exactly the reason every CAL guy needs to file a dispute!!!!!!!

 

[eaglesview]

Good luck with that!

 

[densoo]

I got hammered on where I'll be on the list on retirement date. Went from ~3000 to ~6300.

From the number of pilots at LUAL alone and then combined, it appears you're just over 50% before and after. No change

 

[knightflyer]

SLI's, disputes. I've seen that somewhere before...

Move on guys. It's a new world. We all get screwed when our
plan isn't played out like we mapped out when we got hired.
Pissing and moaning is only going to better the senority of the
pilot behind you.

 

[Dan Roman]

SLI's, disputes. I've seen that somewhere before...

Move on guys. It's a new world. We all get screwed when our
plan isn't played out like we mapped out when we got hired.
Pissing and moaning is only going to better the senority of the
pilot behind you.

Sums it up quite well.

 

[chppr5]

From the number of pilots at LUAL alone and then combined, it appears you're just over 50% before and after. No change

That's the error of your thinking. CAL brought a third of the widebodies to the merger hence the UAL guys at the same percentage has less access to the larger aircraft. If CAL brought the same number of widebodies then there wouldnt be a problem!

 

[whymeworry?]

Funny, the CAL guys now have access to widebodies they never would have had as a standalone. The UAL guys from '97 and later are blended with CAL guys hired in '05 and later who are for the most part younger. In 20 years, the top of the new United seniority list will be dominated by these same younger CAL pilots.

As a UAL pilot,I went from holding the 747 when I retire to holding the 767 with this SLI. Hardly a decimation for the CAL guys, lol.

That's painting the CAL list with too broad a stroke. I was always forecasted to make WB captain at CAL from day one, well before any UAL merger. The UAL aircraft did nothing to improve my career prospects. It has to do with the age we are when hired. I got hired in my mid-thirties and felt screwed compared to the guys hired before me who where much younger (mid-twenties). So what there's always someone younger. You get over it. Now, in my mid forties, I will recover from this raping, but it will take 15 years. I get that some UAL guys would never recover, were the arbitrators to accept the CAL proposal. But they never even came close to considering something in the middle as a resolution. They handed our seniority over on a silver platter. I moved back double-digits, while UAL pilots moved up the same amount. A net swing of 30+%.

Age as a consideration isn't mentioned anywhere in ALPA MP. So if they rejected the CAL MC's methodology because it didn't follow ALPA MP, which it apparently didn't, how can they use methodology outside the charter of ALPA MP in another area (age)?

Anyway, time to move on.

 

[Furloughed80]

Bottom LUAL invol furlough was hired 6/14/99. Dovetailed between two LCAL 1/9/07 hires.

Andy,

How many voluntary furloughs were there at UA?

 

[AWACoff]

Andy,

How many voluntary furloughs were there at UA?

Not enough to save the 1200+ involuntary furloughs who just woke up and realized every day for the rest of their career is Xmas morning.

 

[eaglesview]

Not enough to save the 1200+ involuntary furloughs who just woke up and realized every day for the rest of their career is Xmas morning.

hmmm I wonder what your solution would have been for them??

 

[Andy]

From the number of pilots at LUAL alone and then combined, it appears you're just over 50% before and after. No change

No; it moved from low 40s percentile to over 50%.
I've gone from being able to eventually make 75/767 Cap to, at best, guppy cap.