Questions for the UNICAL pilots.

[eaglesview]

A furloughed guy who hasn't worked in a decade went above working cal guys. Complete horsesh*t. Also, about 500 92 ual guys in the middle didn't have one cal guy between them. How do u explain that? F*ck alpa. I'll never wear their retarded pin again.

That's comical. ALPA did this to you? Have you asked any questions of your merger committee? Have you asked why they didn't even know the basic guidelines?

The guys in the middle are there due to the longevity part of the equation. Again that was proposed by a merger committee that actually read the merger policy before putting in there proposal. Please ask your merger committee why they were so ignorant about the process before you assume some outside force " did this to you."

 

[SWA Bubba]

Seems to me both airlines would have had periods of hiring large blocks of pilots. Obviously at different times. So why would some hired in a 92 hiring spree have a different relative position as others in the same block of hires?
As far as ALPA goes, you would have been a lot worse off without it. Sounds like you screwed by over reaching from your merger committee? Hardly ALPA's fault.
Funny thing about mergers. ALPA is supposed to represent ALL the pilots. There are always individuals who thing ALPA was there to represent just them.

Hey Dan,

Individuals aside, do you really believe that ALPA represents all of its pilot groups the same? That is, equally and fairly? And I'm speaking generally; not pointing to any specific case.

Bubba

 

[Furloughed80]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furloughed80
Andy,

How many voluntary furloughs were there at UA?

Anyone??

 

[Flopgut]

That's comical. ALPA did this to you? Have you asked any questions of your merger committee? Have you asked why they didn't even know the basic guidelines?

The guys in the middle are there due to the longevity part of the equation. Again that was proposed by a merger committee that actually read the merger policy before putting in there proposal. Please ask your merger committee why they were so ignorant about the process before you assume some outside force " did this to you."

It was messy for sure, but that so many UAL ALPA guys are now completely on board with merger policy, bought to make more than a few pilots think Brucia might deserve a little credit.

I'm not throwing out an insult here. Not really even directing that at you, I know you understand a code. But are you not surprised at least a little at how your fellow UAL pilots now feel merger policy is gospel?

 

[eaglesview]

It was messy for sure, but that so many UAL ALPA guys are now completely on board with merger policy, bought to make more than a few pilots think Brucia might deserve a little credit.

I'm not throwing out an insult here. Not really even directing that at you, I know you understand a code. But are you not surprised at least a little at how your fellow UAL pilots now feel merger policy is gospel?

No I am not surprised because that is all that was talked about in the cockpits over the last few months. We felt we had an advantage in longevity and the number of heavies on our property. We were unsure about status as I would venture to say CO has as many Captains as we do (I admit I do not know the numbers ) It was all a mystery as an arbitration can go many different directions as you know.

 

[St. Nic]

Well some current hatchet math says I was roughly 95% of working pilots on the CAL list 3 years ago being merged in with someone about 105% on the UAL list. More importantly, I am currently 80% on the CAL list with 6 straight years of employment being merged behind someone who is still 105% on their list and hasn't worked at their airline in almost 5 years. To say this is the biggest screwjob in the history of ISLs is an exaggeration, as I know TWA got it worse but I don't know of anyone else.

As for question #2, the bottom guy at UAL is being integrated somewhere around a guy in the 75% neighborhood at CAL, not sure where he was 3 years ago though.

US got screwed more

 

[Ex737Driver]

US got screwed more

Dude, this so opens up the door for USAir pilots if the merger with AA is ever allowed.

 

[get2flyin]

US got screwed more

Well, I actually expected it wouldn't take anywhere near this long for an Eastie to try and make this about them. Nearly 36 hours! I'm so impressed with your restraint!

 

[Flopgut]

No I am not surprised because that is all that was talked about in the cockpits over the last few months. We felt we had an advantage in longevity and the number of heavies on our property. We were unsure about status as I would venture to say CO has as many Captains as we do (I admit I do not know the numbers ) It was all a mystery as an arbitration can go many different directions as you know.

When I came to CAL I figured we would be the least likely to prevail well in a ALPA merger. We weren't even ALPA. When we joined I thought it would still be more difficult for us. If this merger had been 15 years ago we would have been lucky to have been stapled. Certainly we're the least likely airline to have entered into a deal with the like of UAL and have come out the way we did. 15 years ago we would be looking for jobs instead of looking at opportunity. I know the guys senior to me remember this, I don't think the guys junior to me do. I don't think our merger guys are baffoons that didnt know the policy. I think everything they did was to garner a certain reaction out of your side.

Anyway, what has to happen now is for us to start acting like a union. The rank and file need to pull the same direction. There should be no reason we don't take mgt to the woodshed on our next contract. I know you understand this.

 

[Shrek]

Anyway, what has to happen now is for us to start acting like a union. The rank and file need to pull the same direction. There should be no reason we don't take mgt to the woodshed on our next contract. I know you understand this..............

THIS ..........

 

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan,

Individuals aside, do you really believe that ALPA represents all of its pilot groups the same? That is, equally and fairly? And I'm speaking generally; not pointing to any specific case.

Bubba

Hi Bubba,
The answer is YES. Obviously we, Hawaiian, are a relatively small ALPA carrier but our history with them is huge. Just prior to deregulation we led the industry in DC-9 pay. It was always either Allegheny, North Central or us depending whose contract was most recently signed. Than deregulation hit and it has been a roller coaster ride to put it mildly. Concessions, two bankruptcies, two mergers attempted by Aloha and a complete shift in air travel patterns to Hawaii.
Through it all ALPA has been a huge resource. Thanks to ALPA we have entered our present era of prosperity with an industry leading contract (when we signed it) and now that the large ALPA carriers are pulling ahead, we should be able to ride those coattails when our next contract comes up. Another example of how ALPA has served us. Despite past managements best efforts and two bankruptcies, we hung onto to our industry leading retirement. Our old A plan was saved, our new DC plan is the highest in the industry I believe (15%). I firmly believe without ALPA we would not have the retirement plan we have nor the payscale. A small independent union simply could not have weathered what we did utilizing the resources of ALPA nor could we have gotten the contract that we now enjoy.
So that's my take based on one small ALPA carriers experience.

Oh, and it was thanks to ALPA our inter island guys don't taxi as fast as they used to....I kid I kid!

 

[Dan Roman]

Specific to the one posters anger at ALPA after a merger I'll give you an example of what I am talking about in my original post here. When Aloha tried to merge with us under Greg Brenneman it got very serious and ALPA was deeply involved. Even the current president came over here (Duane Woerth, regardless what anyone thinks of him). I remember some HA pilots being quite angry and making the statement, ALPA's not representing us! My perception was of course not, AQ was ALPA too, they represented all of us. I couldn't fathom how some thought ALPA should choose sides in an ALPA/ALPA merger. In addition, if it had happened, i would have wanted the surviving airline to have as equatable a seniority list as possible. Greater harmony and doing what's right for everyone involved meant more to me than a few numbers one way or the other.

 

[Dan Roman]

When I came to CAL I figured we would be the least likely to prevail well in a ALPA merger. We weren't even ALPA. When we joined I thought it would still be more difficult for us. If this merger had been 15 years ago we would have been lucky to have been stapled. Certainly we're the least likely airline to have entered into a deal with the like of UAL and have come out the way we did. 15 years ago we would be looking for jobs instead of looking at opportunity. I know the guys senior to me remember this, I don't think the guys junior to me do. I don't think our merger guys are baffoons that didnt know the policy. I think everything they did was to garner a certain reaction out of your side.

Anyway, what has to happen now is for us to start acting like a union. The rank and file need to pull the same direction. There should be no reason we don't take mgt to the woodshed on our next contract. I know you understand this.

Flopgut, I must give you a tip of the hat for sounding as reasonable and balanced as you do. Mergers usually bring out the worst in anyone. You seem to have gone the other way.

 

[Andy]

A furloughed guy who hasn't worked in a decade went above working cal guys. Complete horsesh*t.

Complete BS. All pilots furloughed post-911 had to either accept recall in 2007 or be removed from the seniority list. I know several who were removed from the seniority list.
All LUAL pilots on furlough on snapshot date (10/2010) were furloughed in 2008 and 2009. Just about every twice furloughed LUAL pilot had more longevity than LCAL pilots who were on furlough as of snapshot date. In spite of that, MANY of those furloughed LCAL pilots got a huge windfall.

The problem with some LCAL pilots is that they think the snapshot date should have been in 2013 and the arbitrators should have awarded LCAL's insane SLI proposal. The reason why LCAL has been growing and LUAL has been shrinking is that management has been whipsawing the two groups, shifting flying from LUAL to LCAL ala Lorenzo. There's a reason why he's nicknamed FLIBS.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Complete BS. All pilots furloughed post-911 had to either accept recall in 2007 or be removed from the seniority list. I know several who were removed from the seniority list.
All LUAL pilots on furlough on snapshot date (10/2010) were furloughed in 2008 and 2009. Just about every twice furloughed LUAL pilot had more longevity than LCAL pilots who were on furlough as of snapshot date. In spite of that, MANY of those furloughed LCAL pilots got a huge windfall.

The problem with some LCAL pilots is that they think the snapshot date should have been in 2013 and the arbitrators should have awarded LCAL's insane SLI proposal. The reason why LCAL has been growing and LUAL has been shrinking is that management has been whipsawing the two groups, shifting flying from LUAL to LCAL ala Lorenzo. There's a reason why he's nicknamed FLIBS.

Elaborate as to what flying has been shifted. Specifically where UAL has been harmed by flying actually taken from UAL and given to CAL where there has been no reciprocity. Whatever you can come up with will in no way match the loss of CA seats with the ISL on the aircraft that were ordered BEFORE 10/1/2010.