Question: Pay for difference for a type and SIC?

asolo

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I am going to go to school for the Lear 35 (SIC training) and am going to have it payed for. The person paying for my training won't pay for the type and I would like some feedback on whether I should pay for the difference. I don't know how much it is yet b/c I'm waiting to hear back from Flight Safety. This is my first training in a jet and just have about 500 hrs PIC in both the King Air 200 and 90. Any idea on the difference in price and should I do it? Thanks for any feeback.

Asolo
 

Lead Sled

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For what it's worth, I'd probably recommend that you just hang tight and do the SIC training for now. Looking at your listed aircraft experience, getting the Lear type right off the bat could be a real challenge. However, after you've flown the airplane for a few months and learned to work in a crew the type ride will be much less "stressful".

I've done it both ways with new hires and without exception the guys who waited to upgrade at a recurrent were glad they did. If worse comes to worse and your job evaporates without you getting the type rating all will not be lost - you will have already had the initial groundschool, sim training, and some real world experience in the airplane. At that point you could go to one of the the "non-sim" Lear schools and finish up the type. I just saw one school advertising a Lear type for $4,300.

'Sled
 

semperfido

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no don't pay for it-- be patient and keep flying :)
 

CRAZY LEGS

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Chances are its the same price for the SIC course as the type . I'd talk to your employer about it. Just ask them if they have any objections to you going for the type ride as long as your progressing well in the sim. If they say no, its probably because they know you will be more marketable for other jobs with the type. It's a delicate situation so feel it out. However, if they are requiring you to sign a training contract then I would insist on the type.
 

FracCapt

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CRAZY LEGS said:
Chances are its the same price for the SIC course as the type .
At FSI or Simuflite, it's not even close to the same price. SIC training generally has 3-4 less sim sessions(including checkride) than the type rating course. Check out this link, and note where it says "Part 91 SIC Initial Ends". (I'm assuming he's doing strictly a 91 checkout based on the forum he placed this post in). I'm pretty sure FSI(where he's going) does the same as Simuflite, schedule wise.

http://www.simuflite.com/training/learjet35/l391initial.html
 

cosmotheassman

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another thing too. If you dont have your ATP or ATP written yet, have at least the written done before you do a type. It's useless to get a type rating and not have an ATP. Some employers will want to know why if you dont.
 

CRAZY LEGS

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"SIC training generally has 3-4 less sim sessions(including checkride) than the type rating course"

Looks like thats the case at Simuflite. Check and see if Flightsafety has followed there lead because in the past the 35 Initial at FSI (Wichita) was over the same course duration for both PIC & SIC. Bombardier at DFW runs identical programs in their sims as well. It doesn't cost these places anymore to run a Capt. ride than an F.O. ride. Good luck to you, Asolo, find an angle to work and enjoy the 35.
 

some_dude

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IIRC, if you are 135 the course for PIC and SIC is basically the same. If you are 91, the SIC course is much shorter.

CRAZY LEGS said:
"SIC training generally has 3-4 less sim sessions(including checkride) than the type rating course"

Looks like thats the case at Simuflite. Check and see if Flightsafety has followed there lead because in the past the 35 Initial at FSI (Wichita) was over the same course duration for both PIC & SIC. Bombardier at DFW runs identical programs in their sims as well. It doesn't cost these places anymore to run a Capt. ride than an F.O. ride. Good luck to you, Asolo, find an angle to work and enjoy the 35.
 

Lear70

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I looked into this when I first went though at SF in DFW, but that was '97. It was Part 135 and there was an additional $1,000 fee to get the type on top of the $3,500 basic SIC 135 initial training.

Those fees have probably all gone up some, but the answer stays the same: don't pay out of pocket for the type, it won't do you much good anyway without TIME IN TYPE, the insurance won't let you fly around as a PIC in a Lear without some serious SIC time in it, not to mention if you go to a different job all they'll want is your 8410 for the Part 135 requirements anyway.
 

Stealthh21

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Stick with the SIC. You might ask them if they will eventully pay for it. But lear is ALOT mor airplane then any king air! Take your time! If this company is good then it will be worth the wait! AND DON'T PFT!!!!!!!!!!
 

aeronautic1

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Pic

If you are a good stick and rudder man, then pay for the initial type rating. You have the hour requirements for ATP. Do the ATP written and when you do you check ride, they will also sign you off for ATP. It's the same ride. The key to the whole thing is being prepared BEFORE you show up for school. That mean get all of the course material at least a month before school so you know the sytems cold. This is NOT rocket science and Learjet systems are pretty rudimentary. But you need to know the memory items. You will get a wall poster of the cockpit so you can familiarise yourself with location of swtiches. Look, the whole key here is Jet PIC time. You will not be qualifed to log PIC time for the 135 legs, but you will be qualified to log 91 legs that you fly (e.g. swap legs). Do not let anyone discourage you. If you have half a brain (because we are in aviation) you can pass the course.
Tip: When they do an engine failure after V1, keep the nose wheel on the runway until after passing V2 then rotate. Newbes tend to want to pull it up too early. Have your seat pulled up so you can get full rudder in. Maintaining runway heading and steady climb is what they are looking for. And use your sim partner. That's that lump of grey matter sitting in the right seat with the sweaty palms and huge eyes.

Let's face it, if your employer is not contributing to the training, then after about 6 months of taking their cheap @ss crap, you will have something marketable.

Now, go get 'em, Tiger!!
 

HMR

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I did my PT135 SIC ride first and then got the type in recurrent. My sim partner was getting his type and doing his PIC check. We did the exact same training. The only difference was on the final day I got to skip the oral.

Get your ATP written done. When you get your type it will count as your ATP ride. Much easier than doing it with the Feds (no questions on weather or regs). Good Luck!

aeronautic1 said:
Tip: When they do an engine failure after V1, keep the nose wheel on the runway until after passing V2 then rotate. Newbes tend to want to pull it up too early.
Interesting. I like to rotate ar Vr and climb at V2. Worked great when I was a newbie and still works great now.
 

ruhroa

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my guess is it has nothing to do with price. i think that you should make sure that the reason they want you to do a sic instead of a type . I bet it is because as a typed pilot you log pic when manipulating the controls.
therefore it is alot easier for you to find another job sticking them with the billll
 

TIS

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I'd just do what they tell you. If you've got other opportunities to catch your fall, by all means poke around a bit but I'd leave well enough alone. you've gotten their attention well enough to get offered a job. Don't risk maing them mad by going behind their backs making your own inquiries.

Someone, somewhere has made a decision about what you need in the way of training. It might be because you're a little green to be getting a type and they want you to get a little time in the jet before you type in it. It might be because they don't want you shopping "THEIR" type rating around looking for a better deal. It might also be to see if you'll follow directions as given. Since you probably don't know why they're doing things the way they are I'd let them show you over the next few months why they do the things they do. I work for one of the quirkiest companies in all of business aviation. We do a lot of strange stuff. I used to ask why and I learned very quickly that it's fine to ask - because there's ALWAYS a reason for EVERYTHING - but you'd better accept policies first and ask constructive questions later. The bosses like this better - pretty much universally.

Go see what sim training is like. Don't mess with the type yet. you're not ready for it with your background. You'll see what I mean once you get into it. Don't be in a hurry. It'll come. Just be patient.

TIS
 
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G100driver

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aeronautic1 said:
Tip: When they do an engine failure after V1, keep the nose wheel on the until after passing V2 then rotate. Newbes tend to want to pull it up too early.
Remember, this is the internet .... do believe everything you read.

If you followed this steller advice and you were my type candidate I would place an obstacle in front of the runway and fail you for not following the AFM.

Do it right the 1st time and you will be viewed as a professional.

Engine failure after V1:

Maintain directional control.
1. AT VR- Rotate to pitch angle as prescribed in AFM
2. Climb at no less than V2 - if already above V2 maintain prescribed pitch angled to climb, do not increase pitch to acheive V2.
3. At minimium 400' clean the wing and climb at Vfs.

Good luck at school. As far as the original question goes .... FSI might not allow you to take you type as they do not want to get sideways with the aircraft owner.
 
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HMR

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G100driver said:
If you followed this steller advice and you were my type candidate I would place an obstacle in front of the runway and fail you for not following the AFM.

Do it right the 1st time and you will be viewed as a professional.

Engine failure after V1:

Maintain directional control.
1. AT VR- Rotate
2. Climb at no less than V2 - already above V2 maintain pitch to climb, do not increase pitch to acheive V2.
3. At minimium 400' clean the wing and climb at Vfs.
You're good G100...real good. I'd fly with you anytime.:)
 

English

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I think what aeronautic1 might have been trying to explain is a mental trick around the problem some people have of rotating too abruptly at Vr. I had a sim partner once that, when he heard Vr, would yank on the yoke, do a rudder dance, then crash off the side of the runway. Consistently. He didn't know which engine had failed, and couldn't react in time which proper rudder correction. Our instructor gave him the advice to smoothly and SLOWLY rotate, to allow his feet enough time to figure out which engine had failed. The result was that he was doing sort of a wheelie on the runway - nosewheel off, walking the rudders while the mains were still on the ground. It worked very well as a training tool in the 737 for an A10 hog driver. It must have worked, because he is now at Southwest. :eek:

I'm not advocating keeping the nosewheel on the runway after Vr. But, in a training environment for newbies, having them keep the airplane on the runway a few milliseconds longer seems to help them learn proper technique.
 

HMR

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E- I understand what you're saying. I've heard a lot of "sim tricks". The problem is, these procedures find their way into the actual aircraft. I saw some scary ones recently on a contract flight. If somebody is duck-walking the plane down the runway on a V1 cut they need to get out of the sim and go fly a taildragger for awhile to remember what the pedals do.

I'm of marginal intellingence and marginal-er flying skills. I have to stick to the checklists and fly the profiles correctly. I've never seen a checklist that says to leave an airplane on the ground after Vr or yank it into the air on a V1 cut. I pitch-up at 3 degrees per second at Vr because that's what the checklist says to do. Maybe aeronautic's plane is different?

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to the kitchen. I'm baking a cake to celebrate your 3,000th post.:)
 

Lead Sled

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HMR & G100 Driver...

You guys have restored my faith. I can't believe that someone would suggest a "sim trick" that could possibly put you in a world of hurt in the real airplane. Taking his logic to the next level, why doesn't he recommend planting the nose wheel on the runway and accelerating on up to Vfs or even better - the max tire speed? While you're at it, make sure you do your training at some place like Edwards or the Bonneville salt flats. If you follow that guy's recommendations, you will also need to throw out all of your performance chart data.

'Sled
 

G100driver

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Sled and HMR thank-you.

I have seen some of the biggest goof balls in this profession. Like HMR I am not very smart. If I was smarter I would have become a test pilot. Alas poor Yorik, I am neither.

As I tell the people who work for me "Bongo go fly airplane. Bongo fly airplane way book says. Bongo much too stupid to know any other way."
 
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