Question: Pay for difference for a type and SIC?

[HMR]

If you followed this steller advice and you were my type candidate I would place an obstacle in front of the runway and fail you for not following the AFM.

Do it right the 1st time and you will be viewed as a professional.

Engine failure after V1:

Maintain directional control.
1. AT VR- Rotate
2. Climb at no less than V2 - already above V2 maintain pitch to climb, do not increase pitch to acheive V2.
3. At minimium 400' clean the wing and climb at Vfs.

You're good G100...real good. I'd fly with you anytime.

 

[English]

I think what aeronautic1 might have been trying to explain is a mental trick around the problem some people have of rotating too abruptly at Vr. I had a sim partner once that, when he heard Vr, would yank on the yoke, do a rudder dance, then crash off the side of the runway. Consistently. He didn't know which engine had failed, and couldn't react in time which proper rudder correction. Our instructor gave him the advice to smoothly and SLOWLY rotate, to allow his feet enough time to figure out which engine had failed. The result was that he was doing sort of a wheelie on the runway - nosewheel off, walking the rudders while the mains were still on the ground. It worked very well as a training tool in the 737 for an A10 hog driver. It must have worked, because he is now at Southwest.

I'm not advocating keeping the nosewheel on the runway after Vr. But, in a training environment for newbies, having them keep the airplane on the runway a few milliseconds longer seems to help them learn proper technique.

 

[HMR]

E- I understand what you're saying. I've heard a lot of "sim tricks". The problem is, these procedures find their way into the actual aircraft. I saw some scary ones recently on a contract flight. If somebody is duck-walking the plane down the runway on a V1 cut they need to get out of the sim and go fly a taildragger for awhile to remember what the pedals do.

I'm of marginal intellingence and marginal-er flying skills. I have to stick to the checklists and fly the profiles correctly. I've never seen a checklist that says to leave an airplane on the ground after Vr or yank it into the air on a V1 cut. I pitch-up at 3 degrees per second at Vr because that's what the checklist says to do. Maybe aeronautic's plane is different?

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to the kitchen. I'm baking a cake to celebrate your 3,000th post.

 

[Lead Sled]

HMR & G100 Driver...

You guys have restored my faith. I can't believe that someone would suggest a "sim trick" that could possibly put you in a world of hurt in the real airplane. Taking his logic to the next level, why doesn't he recommend planting the nose wheel on the runway and accelerating on up to Vfs or even better - the max tire speed? While you're at it, make sure you do your training at some place like Edwards or the Bonneville salt flats. If you follow that guy's recommendations, you will also need to throw out all of your performance chart data.

'Sled

 

[G100driver]

Sled and HMR thank-you.

I have seen some of the biggest goof balls in this profession. Like HMR I am not very smart. If I was smarter I would have become a test pilot. Alas poor Yorik, I am neither.

As I tell the people who work for me "Bongo go fly airplane. Bongo fly airplane way book says. Bongo much too stupid to know any other way."

 

[Wang Chung]

but you'd better accept policies first and ask constructive questions later. The bosses like this better - pretty much universally.
TIS

Agreed, a great rule to live by!!

I'd take the SIC training - no risk of failing a type ride and you'll get some quality time in the plane that will make all the difference when you type later.

 

[English]

E- I understand what you're saying. I've heard a lot of "sim tricks". The problem is, these procedures find their way into the actual aircraft. I saw some scary ones recently on a contract flight. If somebody is duck-walking the plane down the runway on a V1 cut they need to get out of the sim and go fly a taildragger for awhile to remember what the pedals do.

I agree 100%. However, when you are dealing with a simulator training center that see the type rating applicant as a client, you'll see this result - anything to help them pass.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to the kitchen. I'm baking a cake to celebrate your 3,000th post.

Chocolate, I hope?

 

[Lead Sled]

But what happened to the concept of "fly as you train, train as you fly"?

'Sled

 

[English]

I'm not talking about keeping the airplane on the runway til V2, like aeronautic1 suggested. I've observed guys (single engine military guys, mostly) have success in larger airplanes by being told to just slow the rotation down.

 

[Jack Schitt]

When the PNF calls "Rotate" he's not making a command, he's making a statement. He's telling the PF that the aircraft has reached a safe flying speed. There is no requirement to rotate at exactly Vr +0. Many very experienced professional pilots will say "Vr" instead of "Rotate" for exactly this reason. It's just as important to keep the airplane tracking straight down the runway as it is to rotate at or near Vr. I'm not saying accelerate to V2 on the ground, but there's nothing wrong with rotating beyond Vr.

 

[aeronautic1]

Profile

The profile that I was given throughout my intial put V2 about 10 knots past VR. Believe my, once I got past the urge to pull it off the runway at engine failure thus winding up in the grass, and getting the thing under control on centerline and with the acceleration of the G, V2 was right about there. Still had 4000 feet of runway and 50 knots to max tire speed. It's was a learning thing that worked best for me.

"Mileage may vary in your location"

 

[Lead Sled]

When the PNF calls "Rotate" he's not making a command, he's making a statement. He's telling the PF that the aircraft has reached a safe flying speed. There is no requirement to rotate at exactly Vr +0. Many very experienced professional pilots will say "Vr" instead of "Rotate" for exactly this reason. It's just as important to keep the airplane tracking straight down the runway as it is to rotate at or near Vr. I'm not saying accelerate to V2 on the ground, but there's nothing wrong with rotating beyond Vr.

A while back, I saw a Boeing training video of the effects on early rotation, late rotation, over rotation and under rotation on aircraft performance. It was eye opening to say the least. If you want, need or expect book performance then you have to fly it by the book.

'Sled

 

[aeronautic1]

I can imagine

A while back, I saw a Boeing training video of the effects on early rotation, late rotation, over rotation and under rotation on aircraft performance. It was eye opening to say the least. If you want, need or expect book performance then you have to fly it by the book.

'Sled

What with the assymentrical thrust forces of wing mounted engines not to mention the drag produced from a failed engine on one side.

You know, I don't remember them ever showing me a perfornace book on th.e G. Only told to climb out maintaining V2.

 

[HMR]

Aeronautic1- Are you flying the G200? I can't remember.

If so, please don't get Lead started. The guy is a walking G200 manual.





I'm serious.

 

[G100driver]

Sled, you are 100% correct.

By the way, the aircraft beoing used in the video did not have wing mounted engines. It was a 727.

Aeronautic1, is this the way they teach guys to fly the Falcon in the Coast Guard? I bet not. If some newbie tried to do what you are suggesting I would be willing to bet that they would wash. Just a guess though. I am just a mere civilian.