Question for UAL Guys...................

[20/20]

Canyonblue,

The lack of a flowthrough was not really killed at UAL per say. The real problem with such here, unlike at Eagle or CALX, is that UAL does not do the hiring for the UAX carriers. Thus UAL would be ceding the hiring standards to an outside entity. I am NOT saying or implying anything negative about the standards at any of the UAX carriers, but the simple fact is that they differ from each other as well as from UAL. Personally I would be much more inclined to have supported a flowthrough if UAL did the hiring for UAX as AMR does for Eagle and CAL for CALX.

In the long run, I believe that we would all be better off if UAL owned and ran the express carriers ala AMR or CAL. It would mean more control over the UAL brand, more coordination, level standards, more pilot stability (at both ends), etc.

 

[Wiggums]

RJ = Rescue Jet

 

[Wiggums]

The last thing an airline like Comair would want to do is hire pilots on furlough from a major. Would you give up your recall rights at United to be an RJ FO? Even if you tell Comair you would there is a history of pilots jumping ship once they get recalled. Why should Comair foot the bill for training just to get screwed over a short time later? Employers want to stay away from someone who the know will have no loyalty to their operation. Yes, it's disappointing that being on furlough makes you less competitive for other flying jobs, however, that's reality.

On the small jet issue. Small jets are NEVER going to go away. They are proven money makers and management will use every trick in the book to be able to operate them. Even if your airline manages to scope out small jets, some other operation will come setup shop down the street and will have to competitive advantage over your airline. Yes, you may prefer to work at a major airline, but the market says otherwise. A few thousand pilots, no matter how united, cannot counter market forces. It's like trying to hold back the tide at the beach; it'll work for a little while, but eventually you'll be defeated.

 

[Zarathustra]

Response to Flying Sig

The grievance on SJs and the 124 is being held in abeyance until March, in return for no furloughs in Jan and Feb. Hopefully things will start to settle down and some real fleet planning will take place in the meantime.

The info on the Delta passes is appreciated. UAL management refuses this on the grounds of "tax purposes". It seems to me Delta management is running circles around UAL and AMR and that Delta is the one who will come out of all this much stronger. At least it's not as rudderless as with Goodwin.

 

[Marko Ramius]

You could be at the top of our list if you had a flowthru. Our MEC had tried for years to get a flowthru without any luck. When times were good the UAL MEC wanted nothing to do with us, now we have alot of pilots who are glad we are not in the same situation as Eagle or COEX losing Regional jobs at the expense of a flowthru. Consider the flowthru at Express dead in the water. Other than that we would hire UAL furloughed pilots but I imagine they would have to resign seniority.

Point taken canyonblue, I was still at an Express carrier when some of the flowthru talk was going around the ranks, but like you said it never got anywhere then, and I'm sure it won't get anywhere now. Don't get me started on the seniority number thing!!

 

[Marko Ramius]

If you look at the quote you used, I didn't point to history as the reason for support. This is a union issue. We are supposed to support each other,period. If you are citing RJDC in your argument, you know that. The right thing to do in this situation for carriers that are hiring or are about to hire is to express the support for the distressed carriers by trying to help out those furloughed pilots. Again, I'm not saying that you would be succesfull in negotiating with your management's, but the lack of an effort is weak. And if you want to put history into it fine. UAL ALPA (and every one else too) helped out Comair during their strike, and now they don't want to help us out when their company says they will ignore us. What is the MEC's reason for their lack of support? When our company booted Westair and UFS, we offered prefferential interviews to those affected and many deserving people recieved job offers because of it. I would never say we are perfect because that's not true, but we do try. That said even if everything major airline unions are accused of is true, ALPA regionals aren't proving themselves to be any better if they don't support the values that they held high when the tables were turned. Bottom line, it's a philosophical thing that I don't expect to changed, I'm just stating a point.

 

[Marko Ramius]

EMB guy,
Thanks for the support, and again I understand that it is unlikely that management will change their minds although most of us will likely be out for more than a year or two. My point is that no one at the MEC level even seems interested in even trying. My point about UAL helping out Comair, Westair and UFS was more directed at ALPA helping ALPA not so much the individual situations themselves although I understand your point. I really don't expect much to change, it's more of a philosophical thing and I've got a lot of time on my hands to talk about it!!!!!

 

[Boz]

EMB GUY you stated:

"IF a bunch of furloughees got called back in a short timeframe there would be many flight cancellations and corresponding loss of revenue and damage to the relationship with our mainline.
Going to mgmt and and saying "look fella's, our fellow ALPA bro's are on the street for anywhere from a few months to a year or two. Would you mind hiring them? We know that they're certain to leave with little or no notice when they get the call from their former employer."


What I would like to point out is that there are guys that were furloughed on Oct. 15 and 30 at UAL alone that will not be coming back in any short time. These guys are looking at a minimum of year and a half and more like 2-4 years.

UAL has over 1800 guys that are not furloughed but in a surplus situation because UAL retired close to a 100 jets out of the 727 and 737-200 fleet. Now these guys are awaiting a multitude of changes from seat, domicile and equipment bid changes in the coming months. So to suggest that furloughs at the major airlines are going to last a few months is inaccurate. The recent furloughs at UAL are going to be at least 2-4 if not 5 years long. Even if they called everyone back tomorrow they will be no jet to fly.

So, when Comair and Air Wisky had contract issues and UAL-ALPA members supported them, this is the thanks we get in return. It is sure nice to be apart of a union that is quite divided. The MAJORS Vs REGIONALS.

There are many issues that are going to have to be hammered out and to think that the furloughed guys are going to leave the way comair guys did to Exec JEt is rediculous. That is a seperate issue that happened during a contract disput and under quite different curcumstances. I am sure the axe will fall the other way someday.

There is no way with all the surplus' at UAL are going to bring back furloughed guys at anytime soon. So why not hire a furloughed guy and not have him/her resign there seniority if he/she commits to a 24 month commitment. Many have worked at regionals for a lot less time. In the cases at UAL, the company has allowed pilots to stay at there new carrier for upto 24 months, if they made there intention known to the UAL CP's office at the start of there new airline job. They simply change employment status from furloughed to personal leave.

So I think it is possible for furloughed pilots to commit to some length of service, and that HR depts at the Regionals need to evaluate this based on the individual they are interviewing.

This is probably never going to happen, but i think it is time that ALPA works closer to resolving the issues that seperate the majors and regionals, and maybe we can get some highly qualified pilots flying again.

Boz

 

[Rottweiller]

So, when Comair and Air Wisky had contract issues and UAL-ALPA members supported them, this is the thanks we get in return. It is sure nice to be apart of a union that is quite divided. The MAJORS Vs REGIONALS.

Let's not forget that when the majors were in contract talks the regionals also supported the pilot's position including, and not limited to, not flying struck routes. However all along any talk of flow through / back were shot down and now you think it is unjust and a slap in the face that you can't have our jobs now??

So why not hire a furloughed guy and not have him/her resign there seniority if he/she commits to a 24 month commitment. Many have worked at regionals for a lot less time.

I agree with EMB Guy on this, it would cause alot of problems when they get recalled. Yes many did work at the regionals for less time but moved to what at the time were greener pastures and their fellow work mates wished them luck probably with envy. I really don't think that they would resign any seniority especially if when things did pick up they then fell lower than new hires because of the 24 month commitment, or would this get renegged and build further resentment?

I don't like the idea of pilot's on furlough but I do get annoyed when it comes to trying to have your cake and eating it too at the expense of other pilots. Particulary if ALPA gets envolved pitting one ALPA membership against the other. ALPA should have no place in causing a battle between to representative groups.

 

[20/20]

As far as the regionals taking some of our furloughees...UAL is the ONLY carrier out there that has a CONTRACTUAL clause the requires UAL to offer preferential hiring to FURLOUGHED or displaced ALPA pilots. We paid for this clause in negotiations. It does not really have a direct benefit to current UAL pilots, but it does and has directly benefited the profession.

It has been used very successfully in the past with major as well as regional pilots. It would sure be nice to see some of that same turned around toward our furloughees.

I know that with no flow through that our guys would start at the bottom, but these days a job flying is a job flying. These are certainly not weak or untested pilots, as new hires can be. The amount of time they are likely to stay at the regional is no different that for current regional pilots...if they get a better offer they are gone. Same is true for the regional pilots who don't yet have a seniority number elsewhere. Up until last year, almost every regional pilot had multiple applications out.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Rottweiller,

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that us major airline furloughees are trying to take your current jobs? IIf so that isn't the case, we just want a fair shake at the future openings. It is fairly easy to see that those of us in the first batch of furloughs will be out for quite some time, and able to make a good commitment to any carrier. I also think it's unfair to say that we would renege on our LOA commitment, I for one am willing to show copies of all the documents to any employer and will live up to any commitment. Besides, the way I read the contract being on LOA would have no effect on our seniority if the company were to hire in the meantime. Is there any reason the regionals couldn't hire a mix of pilots? Some major furloughees from various airlines, some corporate, some flight instructors, military, etc. This would dramatically dampen the impact of future recalls, and probably make it more akin to a traditional regional attrition rate. If we were asking to retain our seniority numbers and go to the regionals as captains without a flowthrough or anything, I can see how that would be having our cake and eating it too, but I don't feel coming in as an F/O and keeping our recall rights truly hurts anybody if it is done right.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Rottweiller,

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that us major airline furloughees are trying to take your current jobs?

Yes, that's exactly what he is saying.

 

[TheRaven]

14 year old Necro-thread resurrected......has to be some kind of a record.

 

[SWA Bubba]

14 year old Necro-thread resurrected......has to be some kind of a record.

No, that's about par for Uncle Bunkie. That's all he does--resurrect decades-old threads, and make a comment like they're new or something. It gets tiresome after he's done it ten times in a row.

Bubba

 

[Rekks Inbound]

I'm kinda surprised he didn't blame it all on black cowboy boots....

Peace.

Rekks