Question for UAL Guys...................

[Boz]

I undersatnd that ALPA and UAL have comprimized with further furloughs reductions to not take place untill March 2002.

But what is happening during this time with negotiations with the guys that where furloughed and had completed there probationary year? (124) out of (591)

How about the what is happening with the guys taking early retirement, leaves of absences, and reductions in the monthly bids to 60 hours. I have not heard to much regarding this on the UAL forum and am curious to see where we are at today.

I read today that UAL loads where at 89.2% this thanksgiving, but I also read that we needed a 96% load to break even. I am just trying to get a picture of some sort, as to what the future at UAL will be come next year, I know only time will tell, but curious as to what you might be thinking! I like the insight I get from this board. Like someone stated earlier this is something you can't get from Air Inc, AEPS, UPAS, etc.......thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Cardinal]

I hate to pitch other forums, but each has its niche. Got an interview or application question? We come here. For the indepth economic picture? Try http://www.usaviation.com/cgi-bin/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=11

 

[ual737]

UAL

Boz, The botom line is that UAL has more money going out than it has going in - basic econ. Can't keep losing money and stay in business. I'm not a big fan of giving back what one has worked so hard to get - you may never get it back. However, this may be a time when we need to take a good look at it. My personal oppinion is we need to make some sort concession and re-establish a new baseline so we can get back in the black. This could be a contractual agreement, ie. at "X" date normal pay would go back into effect. Dubinski (UAL ALPA) scares me a little with his absolutely, "Final Answer" no pay cuts hard line. I believe if we (the pilots) took a small pay cut, the mechs may step back a little until we get back on our feet. The botom Line.... The Unprecedented events of 9/11 forced the industry to take unprecedented steps to regain momentum. We have to get on board or we are going to be left behind. There is no reason we should have to fill our plane to 96% to make money.

I say one more round of furloughs and two years before we get called back unless the aforementioned takes place.

 

[Gordo]

I listened to the ALPA hotline this morning. Their message dated Wed Nov 21 said that UAL and ALPA have agreed not to furlough the 403 pilot tentatively scheduled for Jan and Feb and delay them until March if necessary. Then if the company needs to furlough them, ALPA has approved them to give only 15 days notice versus the contractual 30 days.

UAL and ALPA are looking into other ways to mitigate more furloughs including an increase in the number of 60 hour surplus lines as a way to reduce costs.

Certainly with over 1260 surplus bumps as of 31 OCT there is a massive training movement in TK. It seems to me that even with just retraining those 1260 surplus bump pilots that'll take TK at least a year to get through them, and now with more bump letters coming out, I don't see the UAL 591 being recalled any time soon.

TK can only sustain so much training and now they have two fewer airframes therefore fewer sim devices to train on. During the heyday, TK could only handle 100 new hires a month plus retraining and currency for equipments changes.

As one of the many UAL furloughees, I can only hope that everything turns around and the company starts posting profits.

The 89% load factor is good though since it means the public is out there flying. If public confidence increases all airlines should be able to charge what they need to, in order to post profits.

 

[Zarathustra]

Short Courses and Retirements.

Bear in mind that 100 new hires requires a lot more capacity than re-quals and short courses. Haven't heard anything on many people taking early outs. Projected 2002 retirements are 360 (don't know if that includes 20% for herpes or not, some figures do, some don't), 2003 retirements 300, another 300 in 2004. Conservative, if UAL stays at same size, no more furloughs, etc., etc., etc., looks like 591 back in late 03 early 04.

Avolar has hired at least 15 of the 591 for limited ops. Real hiring push should come in Jan to anticipate ramping up for April. Hiring is not being done in seniority, one of the 15 had two months. Don't know what the criteria might be, no herpes resurrected b/c it's going to be run 121. No info. at all on interviews, if they even take place, domiciles, if they will have any, it's all in stealth mode. 591 don't have to give up numbers.

Any info. from Delta guys? Rumor that furloughees get a year of jumpseat privileges (Any truth? Passes?)

 

[ual591]

It sounds like the 124 are being swept under the rug for the time being. One additional note: I think the number represented by this grievance is actually a little greater than 124. Because pilots at United don't necessarily come off probation in seniority order, the total number represented should probably be everyone senior to the most junior pilot off probation. I'm not sure the seniority number of the most senior pilot furloughed, but I believe the most junior pilot off probation was 10,005.

I haven't seen any results of the reduction agreements. I do find it very interesting that all they were called prior to a week ago were "surplus reductions", and now they are being called "furlough reductions". The talk is sounding like before last week's "good news" that furloughs were a certainty in Jan and Feb. This is also interesting because the CEO's message over a week ago said that no further furloughs beyond those that have already been furloughed was expected.

Don't believe those 96% load factor numbers. I think those were probably taken from how many seats would have to be sold to make up for the 15 million a day the company said it was losing. That 15 million came out before the furlough, parking of 727 and 737-200, and schedule reduction.

I find it discouraging that Frontier is adding flights out of Denver, one is even to Chicago. That shows me United just might have cut capacity a little too much, and is in no big hurry to make themselves more available to the customers which are coming back.

 

[P3-Adub]

DEN is adding some more flying soon. However they just bumped another 60 Guppy captains. It was also announced non-stop service to Hawaii twice a week, Sat & Sun. The DEN - HNL will be flown in a 777, still no more chance of DEN becoming a domicile for that one. I agree that it is frustrating seeing Frontier and Southwest make a rapid comeback and actually grow while we are in a hold. Aalso hate to see all of the SJs as they are now called taking our flying.

 

[Rottweiller]

If you are reffering to the RJ's as SJ's (can imagine what the S probably stands for) I am sorry that you feel they are taking your flying.

But, the regionals flying has been cut back - FACT

The regionals have also had furloughs because of the reduced flying - FACT

The break even load factor on an RJ is 35-40% (18-20 pax) - FACT
Average RJ load factor is 80-84%

At the moment the regionals are basically a cash cow for the majors (particulary UAL) so you have to ask "who paid for my pay check last month?"

I am tired of hearing that "the regionals this..." and "the regionals are taking our flying" we too have taken hits not just the heavy metal drivers.

 

[FlyingSig]

Re: Short Courses and Retirements.

Any info. from Delta guys? Rumor that furloughees get a year of jumpseat privileges (Any truth? Passes?)

DAL furloughees get 1 year regular pass for all on pass list(family/companion/etc). Already issued buddy passes are still valid. After that they get S3-B passes for the entire time on furlough. Our contract states that we get jumpseat privileges the entire time on furlough but the FAA said no to this so the company came up with the S3-B deal.

So now a question back at ya.... how goes the UAL Force Majeur grievance? When it going to be heard etc.. etc..?

 

[Splert]

SJ = Southwest Jets


Late....

 

[P3-Adub]

SJs - Small Jets. I guess there was some concern over the use of the term RJs- Regional Jets as they are now refered to in our contract. Again, no disrespect for the size, I flew much smaller jets than the Bombardier or EMB Jet.

There are now many SJs on old UAL Shuttle & Mainline routes.

Southwest Jets - good one !

 

[canyonblue]

Well from flying some United mainline routes I think you may want the "SJ" to stand for SAVIOR JETS. With some loads on these routes being around 15-35 I'm sure you are glad not to be losing big money sending a 727 or a 737-200 on these loads. Bottom line is United tells us where to fly them and when. If you can turn a profit on some of these routes with these loads then someone in HQ would love to hear how. When times get better you will have the routes back as no bean counter at UAL is going to lets more money slip away. Then maybe our pilots will complain about the LJ's taking our flying. Also a recent article in a business publication had a graph showing the change of flying since 9/11 in respect to RJ/Mainline routes. United had the smallest % with USAirways the largest. There is only one way to make money in business, increase profits.

 

[Andy]

Rotweiller, you sound like you've got some pretty thin skin there. At UAL, we have a huge problem with SJ expansion during mainline contraction. That's great if you want to stay flying for someone like Skywest or Comair, but I prefer to fly for a major, and I think that most other pilots aspire to do the same.
A while back, I posted numbers from the FAA's website showing no less than 20% growth per annum at regionals vice approximately 3% growth at the majors over the last 5 years. Regionals have seen the bulk of the increase in flying, and now at UAL we see our regional feeds taking over mainline routes. This is a problem for those of us who wish to fly at the majors.
If you're happy to make a regional a career, good on ya. I prefer the pay and time off that a major offers.

And yes, SJ = small jet. Do you find it offensive? It wasn't intended to be. Last I recall, there were several regional pilots who were complaining about them being called regional jets.

As for your facts, great. I can point to facts that show just the opposite. It just depends on who crunches the numbers.

 

[Marko Ramius]

If you are reffering to the RJ's as SJ's (can imagine what the S probably stands for) I am sorry that you feel they are taking your flying.

But, the regionals flying has been cut back - FACT

The regionals have also had furloughs because of the reduced flying - FACT

The break even load factor on an RJ is 35-40% (18-20 pax) - FACT
Average RJ load factor is 80-84%

At the moment the regionals are basically a cash cow for the majors (particulary UAL) so you have to ask "who paid for my pay check last month?"

I am tired of hearing that "the regionals this..." and "the regionals are taking our flying" we too have taken hits not just the heavy metal drivers.

First of all, the government paid my check last month since I am furloughed so I won't spend much time pondering that question. When you boil it all down, it's a contractual issue which I am sure any airline pilot can understand. We (UA) were planning on pull down mainline flying to contractual limits prior to 9/11-now they have just abrogated the contract. We have a very detailed contract(lawyers sometimes do work for you!) that doesn't have force majeur to cover this type of situation. When I saw our scope language from C2K last September, I remember saying to my instructor that the bulk of our pilots don't know what we just signed up for. Well we got it, and the best part is that we don't even understand the situation in the slightest. As a UAL pilot, I take full responsibility for missteps, it's not the Express carriers fault. They just do what they're told by management. While I don't hold them accountable for flying the routes, I do hold their union MEC's responsible for not even voicing one iota of support for their furloughed ALPA bretheren. There is no valid reason that we couldn't be interviewed for jobs on the bottom of your lists other than sour grapes. The Comair MEC sent us a letter of gratitude for helping out with stike funds last spring, funny how they don't issue a letter supporting ALPA distressed carrier status when their carrier has stated that they won't even interview us. So in the end, you are right in that too many major airline pilots have looked down on regional people for too long, but right now the regionals aren't proving themselves to be any better. I think we (ALPA) as a whole would rather spend our time beating each other up at every turn and complaining about it then taking a reaslistic attempt to fix things.

 

[canyonblue]

While I don't hold them accountable for flying the routes, I do hold their union MEC's responsible for not even voicing one iota of support for their furloughed ALPA bretheren. There is no valid reason that we couldn't be interviewed for jobs on the bottom of your lists other than sour grapes.

You could be at the top of our list if you had a flowthru. Our MEC had tried for years to get a flowthru without any luck. When times were good the UAL MEC wanted nothing to do with us, now we have alot of pilots who are glad we are not in the same situation as Eagle or COEX losing Regional jobs at the expense of a flowthru. Consider the flowthru at Express dead in the water. Other than that we would hire UAL furloughed pilots but I imagine they would have to resign seniority.

 

[20/20]

Canyonblue,

The lack of a flowthrough was not really killed at UAL per say. The real problem with such here, unlike at Eagle or CALX, is that UAL does not do the hiring for the UAX carriers. Thus UAL would be ceding the hiring standards to an outside entity. I am NOT saying or implying anything negative about the standards at any of the UAX carriers, but the simple fact is that they differ from each other as well as from UAL. Personally I would be much more inclined to have supported a flowthrough if UAL did the hiring for UAX as AMR does for Eagle and CAL for CALX.

In the long run, I believe that we would all be better off if UAL owned and ran the express carriers ala AMR or CAL. It would mean more control over the UAL brand, more coordination, level standards, more pilot stability (at both ends), etc.

 

[Wiggums]

RJ = Rescue Jet

 

[Wiggums]

The last thing an airline like Comair would want to do is hire pilots on furlough from a major. Would you give up your recall rights at United to be an RJ FO? Even if you tell Comair you would there is a history of pilots jumping ship once they get recalled. Why should Comair foot the bill for training just to get screwed over a short time later? Employers want to stay away from someone who the know will have no loyalty to their operation. Yes, it's disappointing that being on furlough makes you less competitive for other flying jobs, however, that's reality.

On the small jet issue. Small jets are NEVER going to go away. They are proven money makers and management will use every trick in the book to be able to operate them. Even if your airline manages to scope out small jets, some other operation will come setup shop down the street and will have to competitive advantage over your airline. Yes, you may prefer to work at a major airline, but the market says otherwise. A few thousand pilots, no matter how united, cannot counter market forces. It's like trying to hold back the tide at the beach; it'll work for a little while, but eventually you'll be defeated.

 

[Zarathustra]

Response to Flying Sig

The grievance on SJs and the 124 is being held in abeyance until March, in return for no furloughs in Jan and Feb. Hopefully things will start to settle down and some real fleet planning will take place in the meantime.

The info on the Delta passes is appreciated. UAL management refuses this on the grounds of "tax purposes". It seems to me Delta management is running circles around UAL and AMR and that Delta is the one who will come out of all this much stronger. At least it's not as rudderless as with Goodwin.

 

[Marko Ramius]

You could be at the top of our list if you had a flowthru. Our MEC had tried for years to get a flowthru without any luck. When times were good the UAL MEC wanted nothing to do with us, now we have alot of pilots who are glad we are not in the same situation as Eagle or COEX losing Regional jobs at the expense of a flowthru. Consider the flowthru at Express dead in the water. Other than that we would hire UAL furloughed pilots but I imagine they would have to resign seniority.

Point taken canyonblue, I was still at an Express carrier when some of the flowthru talk was going around the ranks, but like you said it never got anywhere then, and I'm sure it won't get anywhere now. Don't get me started on the seniority number thing!!

 

[Marko Ramius]

If you look at the quote you used, I didn't point to history as the reason for support. This is a union issue. We are supposed to support each other,period. If you are citing RJDC in your argument, you know that. The right thing to do in this situation for carriers that are hiring or are about to hire is to express the support for the distressed carriers by trying to help out those furloughed pilots. Again, I'm not saying that you would be succesfull in negotiating with your management's, but the lack of an effort is weak. And if you want to put history into it fine. UAL ALPA (and every one else too) helped out Comair during their strike, and now they don't want to help us out when their company says they will ignore us. What is the MEC's reason for their lack of support? When our company booted Westair and UFS, we offered prefferential interviews to those affected and many deserving people recieved job offers because of it. I would never say we are perfect because that's not true, but we do try. That said even if everything major airline unions are accused of is true, ALPA regionals aren't proving themselves to be any better if they don't support the values that they held high when the tables were turned. Bottom line, it's a philosophical thing that I don't expect to changed, I'm just stating a point.

 

[Marko Ramius]

EMB guy,
Thanks for the support, and again I understand that it is unlikely that management will change their minds although most of us will likely be out for more than a year or two. My point is that no one at the MEC level even seems interested in even trying. My point about UAL helping out Comair, Westair and UFS was more directed at ALPA helping ALPA not so much the individual situations themselves although I understand your point. I really don't expect much to change, it's more of a philosophical thing and I've got a lot of time on my hands to talk about it!!!!!

 

[Boz]

EMB GUY you stated:

"IF a bunch of furloughees got called back in a short timeframe there would be many flight cancellations and corresponding loss of revenue and damage to the relationship with our mainline.
Going to mgmt and and saying "look fella's, our fellow ALPA bro's are on the street for anywhere from a few months to a year or two. Would you mind hiring them? We know that they're certain to leave with little or no notice when they get the call from their former employer."


What I would like to point out is that there are guys that were furloughed on Oct. 15 and 30 at UAL alone that will not be coming back in any short time. These guys are looking at a minimum of year and a half and more like 2-4 years.

UAL has over 1800 guys that are not furloughed but in a surplus situation because UAL retired close to a 100 jets out of the 727 and 737-200 fleet. Now these guys are awaiting a multitude of changes from seat, domicile and equipment bid changes in the coming months. So to suggest that furloughs at the major airlines are going to last a few months is inaccurate. The recent furloughs at UAL are going to be at least 2-4 if not 5 years long. Even if they called everyone back tomorrow they will be no jet to fly.

So, when Comair and Air Wisky had contract issues and UAL-ALPA members supported them, this is the thanks we get in return. It is sure nice to be apart of a union that is quite divided. The MAJORS Vs REGIONALS.

There are many issues that are going to have to be hammered out and to think that the furloughed guys are going to leave the way comair guys did to Exec JEt is rediculous. That is a seperate issue that happened during a contract disput and under quite different curcumstances. I am sure the axe will fall the other way someday.

There is no way with all the surplus' at UAL are going to bring back furloughed guys at anytime soon. So why not hire a furloughed guy and not have him/her resign there seniority if he/she commits to a 24 month commitment. Many have worked at regionals for a lot less time. In the cases at UAL, the company has allowed pilots to stay at there new carrier for upto 24 months, if they made there intention known to the UAL CP's office at the start of there new airline job. They simply change employment status from furloughed to personal leave.

So I think it is possible for furloughed pilots to commit to some length of service, and that HR depts at the Regionals need to evaluate this based on the individual they are interviewing.

This is probably never going to happen, but i think it is time that ALPA works closer to resolving the issues that seperate the majors and regionals, and maybe we can get some highly qualified pilots flying again.

Boz

 

[Rottweiller]

So, when Comair and Air Wisky had contract issues and UAL-ALPA members supported them, this is the thanks we get in return. It is sure nice to be apart of a union that is quite divided. The MAJORS Vs REGIONALS.

Let's not forget that when the majors were in contract talks the regionals also supported the pilot's position including, and not limited to, not flying struck routes. However all along any talk of flow through / back were shot down and now you think it is unjust and a slap in the face that you can't have our jobs now??

So why not hire a furloughed guy and not have him/her resign there seniority if he/she commits to a 24 month commitment. Many have worked at regionals for a lot less time.

I agree with EMB Guy on this, it would cause alot of problems when they get recalled. Yes many did work at the regionals for less time but moved to what at the time were greener pastures and their fellow work mates wished them luck probably with envy. I really don't think that they would resign any seniority especially if when things did pick up they then fell lower than new hires because of the 24 month commitment, or would this get renegged and build further resentment?

I don't like the idea of pilot's on furlough but I do get annoyed when it comes to trying to have your cake and eating it too at the expense of other pilots. Particulary if ALPA gets envolved pitting one ALPA membership against the other. ALPA should have no place in causing a battle between to representative groups.

 

[20/20]

As far as the regionals taking some of our furloughees...UAL is the ONLY carrier out there that has a CONTRACTUAL clause the requires UAL to offer preferential hiring to FURLOUGHED or displaced ALPA pilots. We paid for this clause in negotiations. It does not really have a direct benefit to current UAL pilots, but it does and has directly benefited the profession.

It has been used very successfully in the past with major as well as regional pilots. It would sure be nice to see some of that same turned around toward our furloughees.

I know that with no flow through that our guys would start at the bottom, but these days a job flying is a job flying. These are certainly not weak or untested pilots, as new hires can be. The amount of time they are likely to stay at the regional is no different that for current regional pilots...if they get a better offer they are gone. Same is true for the regional pilots who don't yet have a seniority number elsewhere. Up until last year, almost every regional pilot had multiple applications out.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Rottweiller,

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that us major airline furloughees are trying to take your current jobs? IIf so that isn't the case, we just want a fair shake at the future openings. It is fairly easy to see that those of us in the first batch of furloughs will be out for quite some time, and able to make a good commitment to any carrier. I also think it's unfair to say that we would renege on our LOA commitment, I for one am willing to show copies of all the documents to any employer and will live up to any commitment. Besides, the way I read the contract being on LOA would have no effect on our seniority if the company were to hire in the meantime. Is there any reason the regionals couldn't hire a mix of pilots? Some major furloughees from various airlines, some corporate, some flight instructors, military, etc. This would dramatically dampen the impact of future recalls, and probably make it more akin to a traditional regional attrition rate. If we were asking to retain our seniority numbers and go to the regionals as captains without a flowthrough or anything, I can see how that would be having our cake and eating it too, but I don't feel coming in as an F/O and keeping our recall rights truly hurts anybody if it is done right.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Rottweiller,

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that us major airline furloughees are trying to take your current jobs?

Yes, that's exactly what he is saying.

 

[TheRaven]

14 year old Necro-thread resurrected......has to be some kind of a record.

 

[SWA Bubba]

14 year old Necro-thread resurrected......has to be some kind of a record.

No, that's about par for Uncle Bunkie. That's all he does--resurrect decades-old threads, and make a comment like they're new or something. It gets tiresome after he's done it ten times in a row.

Bubba

 

[Rekks Inbound]

I'm kinda surprised he didn't blame it all on black cowboy boots....

Peace.

Rekks