Question for UAL Guys...................

[P3-Adub]

SJs - Small Jets. I guess there was some concern over the use of the term RJs- Regional Jets as they are now refered to in our contract. Again, no disrespect for the size, I flew much smaller jets than the Bombardier or EMB Jet.

There are now many SJs on old UAL Shuttle & Mainline routes.

Southwest Jets - good one !

 

[canyonblue]

Well from flying some United mainline routes I think you may want the "SJ" to stand for SAVIOR JETS. With some loads on these routes being around 15-35 I'm sure you are glad not to be losing big money sending a 727 or a 737-200 on these loads. Bottom line is United tells us where to fly them and when. If you can turn a profit on some of these routes with these loads then someone in HQ would love to hear how. When times get better you will have the routes back as no bean counter at UAL is going to lets more money slip away. Then maybe our pilots will complain about the LJ's taking our flying. Also a recent article in a business publication had a graph showing the change of flying since 9/11 in respect to RJ/Mainline routes. United had the smallest % with USAirways the largest. There is only one way to make money in business, increase profits.

 

[Andy]

Rotweiller, you sound like you've got some pretty thin skin there. At UAL, we have a huge problem with SJ expansion during mainline contraction. That's great if you want to stay flying for someone like Skywest or Comair, but I prefer to fly for a major, and I think that most other pilots aspire to do the same.
A while back, I posted numbers from the FAA's website showing no less than 20% growth per annum at regionals vice approximately 3% growth at the majors over the last 5 years. Regionals have seen the bulk of the increase in flying, and now at UAL we see our regional feeds taking over mainline routes. This is a problem for those of us who wish to fly at the majors.
If you're happy to make a regional a career, good on ya. I prefer the pay and time off that a major offers.

And yes, SJ = small jet. Do you find it offensive? It wasn't intended to be. Last I recall, there were several regional pilots who were complaining about them being called regional jets.

As for your facts, great. I can point to facts that show just the opposite. It just depends on who crunches the numbers.

 

[Marko Ramius]

If you are reffering to the RJ's as SJ's (can imagine what the S probably stands for) I am sorry that you feel they are taking your flying.

But, the regionals flying has been cut back - FACT

The regionals have also had furloughs because of the reduced flying - FACT

The break even load factor on an RJ is 35-40% (18-20 pax) - FACT
Average RJ load factor is 80-84%

At the moment the regionals are basically a cash cow for the majors (particulary UAL) so you have to ask "who paid for my pay check last month?"

I am tired of hearing that "the regionals this..." and "the regionals are taking our flying" we too have taken hits not just the heavy metal drivers.

First of all, the government paid my check last month since I am furloughed so I won't spend much time pondering that question. When you boil it all down, it's a contractual issue which I am sure any airline pilot can understand. We (UA) were planning on pull down mainline flying to contractual limits prior to 9/11-now they have just abrogated the contract. We have a very detailed contract(lawyers sometimes do work for you!) that doesn't have force majeur to cover this type of situation. When I saw our scope language from C2K last September, I remember saying to my instructor that the bulk of our pilots don't know what we just signed up for. Well we got it, and the best part is that we don't even understand the situation in the slightest. As a UAL pilot, I take full responsibility for missteps, it's not the Express carriers fault. They just do what they're told by management. While I don't hold them accountable for flying the routes, I do hold their union MEC's responsible for not even voicing one iota of support for their furloughed ALPA bretheren. There is no valid reason that we couldn't be interviewed for jobs on the bottom of your lists other than sour grapes. The Comair MEC sent us a letter of gratitude for helping out with stike funds last spring, funny how they don't issue a letter supporting ALPA distressed carrier status when their carrier has stated that they won't even interview us. So in the end, you are right in that too many major airline pilots have looked down on regional people for too long, but right now the regionals aren't proving themselves to be any better. I think we (ALPA) as a whole would rather spend our time beating each other up at every turn and complaining about it then taking a reaslistic attempt to fix things.

 

[canyonblue]

While I don't hold them accountable for flying the routes, I do hold their union MEC's responsible for not even voicing one iota of support for their furloughed ALPA bretheren. There is no valid reason that we couldn't be interviewed for jobs on the bottom of your lists other than sour grapes.

You could be at the top of our list if you had a flowthru. Our MEC had tried for years to get a flowthru without any luck. When times were good the UAL MEC wanted nothing to do with us, now we have alot of pilots who are glad we are not in the same situation as Eagle or COEX losing Regional jobs at the expense of a flowthru. Consider the flowthru at Express dead in the water. Other than that we would hire UAL furloughed pilots but I imagine they would have to resign seniority.

 

[20/20]

Canyonblue,

The lack of a flowthrough was not really killed at UAL per say. The real problem with such here, unlike at Eagle or CALX, is that UAL does not do the hiring for the UAX carriers. Thus UAL would be ceding the hiring standards to an outside entity. I am NOT saying or implying anything negative about the standards at any of the UAX carriers, but the simple fact is that they differ from each other as well as from UAL. Personally I would be much more inclined to have supported a flowthrough if UAL did the hiring for UAX as AMR does for Eagle and CAL for CALX.

In the long run, I believe that we would all be better off if UAL owned and ran the express carriers ala AMR or CAL. It would mean more control over the UAL brand, more coordination, level standards, more pilot stability (at both ends), etc.

 

[Wiggums]

RJ = Rescue Jet

 

[Wiggums]

The last thing an airline like Comair would want to do is hire pilots on furlough from a major. Would you give up your recall rights at United to be an RJ FO? Even if you tell Comair you would there is a history of pilots jumping ship once they get recalled. Why should Comair foot the bill for training just to get screwed over a short time later? Employers want to stay away from someone who the know will have no loyalty to their operation. Yes, it's disappointing that being on furlough makes you less competitive for other flying jobs, however, that's reality.

On the small jet issue. Small jets are NEVER going to go away. They are proven money makers and management will use every trick in the book to be able to operate them. Even if your airline manages to scope out small jets, some other operation will come setup shop down the street and will have to competitive advantage over your airline. Yes, you may prefer to work at a major airline, but the market says otherwise. A few thousand pilots, no matter how united, cannot counter market forces. It's like trying to hold back the tide at the beach; it'll work for a little while, but eventually you'll be defeated.

 

[Zarathustra]

Response to Flying Sig

The grievance on SJs and the 124 is being held in abeyance until March, in return for no furloughs in Jan and Feb. Hopefully things will start to settle down and some real fleet planning will take place in the meantime.

The info on the Delta passes is appreciated. UAL management refuses this on the grounds of "tax purposes". It seems to me Delta management is running circles around UAL and AMR and that Delta is the one who will come out of all this much stronger. At least it's not as rudderless as with Goodwin.

 

[Marko Ramius]

You could be at the top of our list if you had a flowthru. Our MEC had tried for years to get a flowthru without any luck. When times were good the UAL MEC wanted nothing to do with us, now we have alot of pilots who are glad we are not in the same situation as Eagle or COEX losing Regional jobs at the expense of a flowthru. Consider the flowthru at Express dead in the water. Other than that we would hire UAL furloughed pilots but I imagine they would have to resign seniority.

Point taken canyonblue, I was still at an Express carrier when some of the flowthru talk was going around the ranks, but like you said it never got anywhere then, and I'm sure it won't get anywhere now. Don't get me started on the seniority number thing!!