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Question for UAL Guys...................

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Well-known member
Nov 25, 2001
I undersatnd that ALPA and UAL have comprimized with further furloughs reductions to not take place untill March 2002.

But what is happening during this time with negotiations with the guys that where furloughed and had completed there probationary year? (124) out of (591)

How about the what is happening with the guys taking early retirement, leaves of absences, and reductions in the monthly bids to 60 hours. I have not heard to much regarding this on the UAL forum and am curious to see where we are at today.

I read today that UAL loads where at 89.2% this thanksgiving, but I also read that we needed a 96% load to break even. I am just trying to get a picture of some sort, as to what the future at UAL will be come next year, I know only time will tell, but curious as to what you might be thinking! I like the insight I get from this board. Like someone stated earlier this is something you can't get from Air Inc, AEPS, UPAS, etc.......thanks for your thoughts.

Boz, The botom line is that UAL has more money going out than it has going in - basic econ. Can't keep losing money and stay in business. I'm not a big fan of giving back what one has worked so hard to get - you may never get it back. However, this may be a time when we need to take a good look at it. My personal oppinion is we need to make some sort concession and re-establish a new baseline so we can get back in the black. This could be a contractual agreement, ie. at "X" date normal pay would go back into effect. Dubinski (UAL ALPA) scares me a little with his absolutely, "Final Answer" no pay cuts hard line. I believe if we (the pilots) took a small pay cut, the mechs may step back a little until we get back on our feet. The botom Line.... The Unprecedented events of 9/11 forced the industry to take unprecedented steps to regain momentum. We have to get on board or we are going to be left behind. There is no reason we should have to fill our plane to 96% to make money.

I say one more round of furloughs and two years before we get called back unless the aforementioned takes place.
I listened to the ALPA hotline this morning. Their message dated Wed Nov 21 said that UAL and ALPA have agreed not to furlough the 403 pilot tentatively scheduled for Jan and Feb and delay them until March if necessary. Then if the company needs to furlough them, ALPA has approved them to give only 15 days notice versus the contractual 30 days.

UAL and ALPA are looking into other ways to mitigate more furloughs including an increase in the number of 60 hour surplus lines as a way to reduce costs.

Certainly with over 1260 surplus bumps as of 31 OCT there is a massive training movement in TK. It seems to me that even with just retraining those 1260 surplus bump pilots that'll take TK at least a year to get through them, and now with more bump letters coming out, I don't see the UAL 591 being recalled any time soon.

TK can only sustain so much training and now they have two fewer airframes therefore fewer sim devices to train on. During the heyday, TK could only handle 100 new hires a month plus retraining and currency for equipments changes.

As one of the many UAL furloughees, I can only hope that everything turns around and the company starts posting profits.

The 89% load factor is good though since it means the public is out there flying. If public confidence increases all airlines should be able to charge what they need to, in order to post profits.
Short Courses and Retirements.

Bear in mind that 100 new hires requires a lot more capacity than re-quals and short courses. Haven't heard anything on many people taking early outs. Projected 2002 retirements are 360 (don't know if that includes 20% for herpes or not, some figures do, some don't), 2003 retirements 300, another 300 in 2004. Conservative, if UAL stays at same size, no more furloughs, etc., etc., etc., looks like 591 back in late 03 early 04.

Avolar has hired at least 15 of the 591 for limited ops. Real hiring push should come in Jan to anticipate ramping up for April. Hiring is not being done in seniority, one of the 15 had two months. Don't know what the criteria might be, no herpes resurrected b/c it's going to be run 121. No info. at all on interviews, if they even take place, domiciles, if they will have any, it's all in stealth mode. 591 don't have to give up numbers.

Any info. from Delta guys? Rumor that furloughees get a year of jumpseat privileges (Any truth? Passes?)
It sounds like the 124 are being swept under the rug for the time being. One additional note: I think the number represented by this grievance is actually a little greater than 124. Because pilots at United don't necessarily come off probation in seniority order, the total number represented should probably be everyone senior to the most junior pilot off probation. I'm not sure the seniority number of the most senior pilot furloughed, but I believe the most junior pilot off probation was 10,005.

I haven't seen any results of the reduction agreements. I do find it very interesting that all they were called prior to a week ago were "surplus reductions", and now they are being called "furlough reductions". The talk is sounding like before last week's "good news" that furloughs were a certainty in Jan and Feb. This is also interesting because the CEO's message over a week ago said that no further furloughs beyond those that have already been furloughed was expected.

Don't believe those 96% load factor numbers. I think those were probably taken from how many seats would have to be sold to make up for the 15 million a day the company said it was losing. That 15 million came out before the furlough, parking of 727 and 737-200, and schedule reduction.

I find it discouraging that Frontier is adding flights out of Denver, one is even to Chicago. That shows me United just might have cut capacity a little too much, and is in no big hurry to make themselves more available to the customers which are coming back.
DEN is adding some more flying soon. However they just bumped another 60 Guppy captains. It was also announced non-stop service to Hawaii twice a week, Sat & Sun. The DEN - HNL will be flown in a 777, still no more chance of DEN becoming a domicile for that one. I agree that it is frustrating seeing Frontier and Southwest make a rapid comeback and actually grow while we are in a hold. Aalso hate to see all of the SJs as they are now called taking our flying.
If you are reffering to the RJ's as SJ's (can imagine what the S probably stands for) I am sorry that you feel they are taking your flying.

But, the regionals flying has been cut back - FACT

The regionals have also had furloughs because of the reduced flying - FACT

The break even load factor on an RJ is 35-40% (18-20 pax) - FACT
Average RJ load factor is 80-84%

At the moment the regionals are basically a cash cow for the majors (particulary UAL) so you have to ask "who paid for my pay check last month?"

I am tired of hearing that "the regionals this..." and "the regionals are taking our flying" we too have taken hits not just the heavy metal drivers.
Re: Short Courses and Retirements.

Zarathustra said:

Any info. from Delta guys? Rumor that furloughees get a year of jumpseat privileges (Any truth? Passes?)

DAL furloughees get 1 year regular pass for all on pass list(family/companion/etc). Already issued buddy passes are still valid. After that they get S3-B passes for the entire time on furlough. Our contract states that we get jumpseat privileges the entire time on furlough but the FAA said no to this so the company came up with the S3-B deal.

So now a question back at ya.... how goes the UAL Force Majeur grievance? When it going to be heard etc.. etc..?

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