PSA offered 900's

[jetfo]

"...For better or worse, this industry is all about PIC turbine time. The additional aircraft will get you to the left seat faster and get you on with a mainline carrier sooner, getting a seniority number there sooner and improving your carreer earnings and QOL"

HAHAHAHA!!! Sorry... I couldn't help but to get a little chuckle out of that. Thousands of furloughed pilots nationwide and you're in a hurry to get hired at which "mainline"? Frontier? AirTran? Spirit?

Because, friend, Southwest and FedEx aren't going to be able to hire ALL of you -- and 1000 PIC ain't even close to competitive anymore for those guys.

Selling your soul for PIC turbine is no better than buying an $8000 type rating in the hopes that you'll get an interview (with continued hopes that you'll get hired).

It's an expensive lottery ticket.

You got to pay to play and hope springs eternal!

You have got to take your chances if you don't try you don't get. Things are slowly getting better. Continental, Frontier, AirTran, FedEx, JetBlue, Southwest are all hiring and United and US Airways will be exhausting their fulough lists in the next year or two. What can I say, when things begin to turn around, you've got to be ready.

I had a 23 year old girl in my jumpseat, spent one year at Mesa as an FO on the ERJ145, she is now an FO at Continental. Just goes to show, it can happen. Now where can I get that sex change?

 

[Sig]

If we can agree that's the best comment, then let 'er rip. The message is this: Don't rationalize the situation; if you have to do that then the deal probably stinks.

It sucks. What I see is yet another whipsaw, it's a tough situation, and I daresay PDT and PSA pilots are probably one beatdown away from just saying to heck with it. Things seem pretty bleak over there, and that's a ripe situation for management to exploit.

I can only imagine what it would be like if they wanted us to fly -400s, which every. single. Piedmont. pilot. would die for right now (the fleet plan makes us pull our hair out), then tell us no-go for mo' money or else they go to a contract carrier... it would be extremely hard. Contract up in 2009 for us, how about y'all?

 

[NCFlyer]

jetfo's reasons 1-14 (or is it reason #8 that he omitted) because it would be good for me and all the rest of you guys should make it happen if for no other reason than that.

jetfo let me ask you a question:

Do you have to keep yelling at us?


Or is it just that whatever you say is so profound and important that you want to make sure that nobody misses it? Or possibly you need to have the bifocals checked.

 

[ex j-41]

Has anyone heard what our fearless leaders have to say about this? (alpa)

 

[LandRoverNut]

I vote "NO", our pay rates are disgusting as they are. Flying a 90 seat a/c for less then other airlines flying airplanes half the size? No way.

We need to do 2 things....

1) Get more time to negotiate the rates.
2) PSA needs to show us some "Good Faith" ie: get scheduling to do their job properly and give us acceptable hotels, no industrial parks (All). No truck stops (Sleep inn). Our QOL is horrible.

When PSA management gives us these things then should we be OK in negotiating a 90 seat rate. Why should we sell our souls so they can make more profit?

I vote NO until we get a better QOL and hotels w/ food, bread and water would be better than waht we have!!!!!!!!!

This industry %&$#*@ sucks!

 

[Stuka Luva]

This is an early and unexpected Christmas gift

Oh thank you so much Santa, yeah we are just soooo special and Tempe looOoOOOOooooOoooves us so much don't they?
Why then did they go to Air Wiskey first instead of the "darling" PSA? This deal in its current form blows.

 

[BenderGonzales]

US Airways will be exhausting it's furlough list in a year? Sure. Because we'll all be bypassing recall into the right seat of the E190!

Beyond that I still say you're gambling.

 

[jetfo]

jetfo's reasons 1-14 (or is it reason #8 that he omitted) because it would be good for me and all the rest of you guys should make it happen if for no other reason than that.

jetfo let me ask you a question:

Do you have to keep yelling at us?


Or is it just that whatever you say is so profound and important that you want to make sure that nobody misses it? Or possibly you need to have the bifocals checked.

Sorry, I am starting to be an old man and can't see anything. Maybe I should go to air traffic controllers school;-)

Maybe I am just so passionate (for lack of a better term) on this issue. I work with some of the greatest guys/girls that I have had the opportunity to fly with at PSA in my relatively long aviation career, and I would like to see some good things happen there, for their benefit not mine.

I guess I also believe that we can't change the path this industry has taken overnight and maybe ever. We should strive to improve it to the best of our ability, but to swim against the stream usually doesn't get you anywhere fast.

More and more domestic short and medium haul flying has shifted to the regionals. You are not going to reverse that anytime soon. Pay rates are down across the board and asking for something you can't get is pointless.

My main point is, for PSA or any carrier, get the airplanes and then work on getting the pay and work rules you want. Otherwise you have nothing to negotiate with or for.

If PSA declines the aircraft because they don't like the pay, not only are the aircraft going elsewhere, come time to renegotiate the contract, there will be no CRJ900s on the property to negotiate rates for.

I'll stop my sermon there, good luck you guys and take care!

 

[jetfo]

jetfo's reasons 1-14 (or is it reason #8 that he omitted) because it would be good for me and all the rest of you guys should make it happen if for no other reason than that.

By the way, you're right, for some reason I missed reason #8. Maybe it's like the 13th floor in some buildings, or maybe I'll come up with another excellent reason. Stand by for now

 

[Sig]

My main point is, for PSA or any carrier, get the airplanes and then work on getting the pay and work rules you want. Otherwise you have nothing to negotiate with or for.

That's the point, Jet. Let's get a few things absolutely clear: Growth at a WO is a good thing! The past view that USAirways took regarding taking care of the neighbors while ignoring the family is not just hackneyed, it should be over. Another salient point is the fact that this is a rough, nasty and difficult situation to be in. I will grant out the fact that PSA is flying RJs that PDT negotiated, while you were flying a relatively new fleet, blah blah blah etc, ad nauseum. I'll forget it, I wasn't here, I have the numbers in my contract for larger JET flying pay, and you have the RJs. It's touchy, it's irrelevant.

But what will you have in the future regarding negotiating power? If you don't have it now, you won't have it in the future. That's the slippery slope I've been ranting about. If you DO have a future bargaining chip, I guarantee you have it right now as well, so play that hand and play it to the wall.

Are you willing to have the same atrocious QOL, same pay, same everything except a large increase in cattle you're hauling behind you? It's worth looking at and fighting over.

Again, if you agree that working the best possible deal is the best possible situation and you trust your MEC, then let 'er rip. Do as much as you can.

 

[DiverDriver]

I'll stop my sermon there, good luck you guys and take care!

Here's the thing. You guys agree to this rate and then they start replacing your 200s one for one with 900s. Now, you have not growth, no movement, still stagnant AND you are making more money for your company. How in the hell have you benefited? You haven't.

That's EXACTLY why we refused to discuss a B-scale at AWAC. IT DOES NOT BENEFIT US ONLY MANAGEMENT.

 

[jetfo]

Here's the thing. You guys agree to this rate and then they start replacing your 200s one for one with 900s. Now, you have not growth, no movement, still stagnant AND you are making more money for your company. How in the hell have you benefited? You haven't.

That's EXACTLY why we refused to discuss a B-scale at AWAC. IT DOES NOT BENEFIT US ONLY MANAGEMENT.

There needs to be some fail safe provision that would prevent that.

But, again I don't agree that this only benefits management. This means as many as 200 potential upgrades, many more hard lines moving folks from 72 hour reserve pay to 85-90 hour pay, and better schedules due to longer stage lengths.

 

[rtmcfi]

There needs to be some fail safe provision that would prevent that.

But, again I don't agree that this only benefits management. This means as many as 200 potential upgrades, many more hard lines moving folks from 72 hour reserve pay to 85-90 hour pay, and better schedules due to longer stage lengths.

If it is a one-for-one replacement, there will be no growth! (except for mgmt's bonus) If these planes don't show at the regional level (ie, it costs the company in the ballpark of what the 190's cost) you will still get the growth. Captains go to mainline, Sr. Fos upgrade, Jr fos get better schedules. You still have your pride.

This is not between PSA and Mesa. This is between PSA, and AWAC. Parker detests Mesa. Mesa will not get the growth. AWAC pilots have done there part. The PSA guys would be fools to accept these bigger planes for the same pay. I wish you guys all well......

 

[DiverDriver]

There needs to be some fail safe provision that would prevent that.

But, again I don't agree that this only benefits management. This means as many as 200 potential upgrades, many more hard lines moving folks from 72 hour reserve pay to 85-90 hour pay, and better schedules due to longer stage lengths.

Sorry, I still disagree that you will have growth out of this. You are wholly owned and I don't see how you can dictate what planes you keep and what planes you grow with. If you CAN dictate it then I applaud your move as long as you do not take a freeze on pay for this banded rate. You need to make more than what you're on now otherwise it is undercutting. That's just my opinion.

To those who say AWAC Pilots refused the planes that's bogus. I can't refuse a plane. I can determine what I will and won't work for. It's up to managment to determine what margin they want. Getting more planes will spread costs and make more money for them. I, as a pilot, do not need to finance that INCREASED profit. AWAC is making money, lots of it. I do not need to take a cut or a freeze in order for them to make more money. Right now other work groups at AWAC are being told that AWAC isn't growing because the pilots are too expensive. The pressure is ratcheting up.

 

[Kenny]

If it is a one-for-one replacement, there will be no growth! (except for mgmt's bonus) If these planes don't show at the regional level (ie, it costs the company in the ballpark of what the 190's cost) you will still get the growth. Captains go to mainline, Sr. Fos upgrade, Jr fos get better schedules. You still have your pride.

This is not between PSA and Mesa. This is between PSA, and AWAC. Parker detests Mesa. Mesa will not get the growth. AWAC pilots have done there part. The PSA guys would be fools to accept these bigger planes for the same pay. I wish you guys all well......

Holy Mother of God...............Someone finally gets it!!!!

 

[whatfuelpolicy]

From everything that has been said at PSA regarding the offer for the 900's, the 200's WILL remain online and the 900's will be used for long haul trips and not for the pathetic CLT-GSO round trips that the 700's are doing. What does this mean? 900 long hauls would mean a possibility of 1 or 2 western bases opening. DFW, IAH, STL, maybe even PHX, who knows. Possible international flights out of CLT again. Growth for PSA is a good thing. Lots of upgrades, everyone moves up in seniority, and potentially better schedules instead of 13 hour duty days with 7 hours of scheduled flying.

I believe that if the pilot group approves the 900's to come on property, good things will happen. If the 900's are declined, it is a matter of time before PSA is forced out of the US Airways picture.

This is PSA's final opportunity for any type of growth. Should this be declined, there will never be any more aircraft and the same crappy schedules will continue to be the norm.

 

[DiverDriver]

From everything that has been said at PSA regarding the offer for the 900's, the 200's WILL remain online and the 900's will be used for long haul trips and not for the pathetic CLT-GSO round trips that the 700's are doing. What does this mean? 900 long hauls would mean a possibility of 1 or 2 western bases opening. DFW, IAH, STL, maybe even PHX, who knows. Possible international flights out of CLT again. Growth for PSA is a good thing. Lots of upgrades, everyone moves up in seniority, and potentially better schedules instead of 13 hour duty days with 7 hours of scheduled flying.

I believe that if the pilot group approves the 900's to come on property, good things will happen. If the 900's are declined, it is a matter of time before PSA is forced out of the US Airways picture.

This is PSA's final opportunity for any type of growth. Should this be declined, there will never be any more aircraft and the same crappy schedules will continue to be the norm.

If you believe that to be true PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get it in writing. AWAC pilots were told we had financing for 20 more 200s if we just took a concession for United flying. Guess what, didn't happen. Anything you think that's positive that could happen from this GET IT IN WRITING. Otherwise, you've got nothing.

When I see words like "sounds like" I get nervous now. Of course it's going to "sound like" things are going to be great! They want you to think that. I'm not saying refuse them at all costs just make sure that what you agree to will actually happen the way you've been told. That's all. I won't undercut you. Please, don't undercut us.

 

[whatfuelpolicy]

If you believe that to be true PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get it in writing. AWAC pilots were told we had financing for 20 more 200s if we just took a concession for United flying. Guess what, didn't happen. Anything you think that's positive that could happen from this GET IT IN WRITING. Otherwise, you've got nothing.

When I see words like "sounds like" I get nervous now. Of course it's going to "sound like" things are going to be great! They want you to think that. I'm not saying refuse them at all costs just make sure that what you agree to will actually happen the way you've been told. That's all. I won't undercut you. Please, don't undercut us.

I have been around aviation for quite a while and I spent 5 years with a crap-hole company that constantly fed us the "oh, if we do this, if we get this, good things will happen" line. I have a pretty good BS detector, and I honestly believe that PSA will keep the 200's online and will continue to run them on the short to mid-range segments. Hopefully, the 200's will take over the extremely short flights to allow the 700's and 900's to handle all of the mid-long range flights. Of course, no one knows exactly what will happen until it happens. I just hope for sake of PSA and my job, that the pilot group accepts the offer and keep PSA in the game.

 

[DiverDriver]

Alright then. Good luck.

 

[Crzipilot]

This is exactly where alpa (national) needs to step in and control the situation. (TSA/G*jets, another I believe and every other whipsaw that's occured) Set a nationwide rate / or cost of operting per aircraft. Whether it's through pay rates, vacation amounts/ rigs / etc etc.....And not allow a carrier to go below that.
If PSA had the safety of knowing that they could turn these aircraft away, without another carrier coming in and agreeing to do it, there wouldn't be any argument as to what to do. But the current situation, where MESA has 900's currently operating on the property, one would fathom and No vote would send these things quicker than you can say it, straight to Mesa or somewhere, and I would put money on it that pilot group wouldn't think too hard on taking on the a/c. Get all the MEC's together and agree to do it for X amount min. and you negate the whipsaw. It is this situation that allows management to come in with a straight face, and give a take it or leave it offer. They know they have 5 other whores, they can go proposition. So we are number two.

On the Awac deal, I thought the b-scale was for some flying out west. Don't remember anything regarding negotiations on 900's for you guys, except a press release of your management saying they were talking with US, and hoping....Did your MEC come out and say they refused to fly these for less than 146 rates?

 

[D'Angelo]

From everything that has been said at PSA regarding the offer for the 900's, the 200's WILL remain online and the 900's will be used for long haul trips and not for the pathetic CLT-GSO round trips that the 700's are doing. What does this mean? 900 long hauls would mean a possibility of 1 or 2 western bases opening. DFW, IAH, STL, maybe even PHX, who knows. Possible international flights out of CLT again. Growth for PSA is a good thing. Lots of upgrades, everyone moves up in seniority, and potentially better schedules instead of 13 hour duty days with 7 hours of scheduled flying.

I believe that if the pilot group approves the 900's to come on property, good things will happen. If the 900's are declined, it is a matter of time before PSA is forced out of the US Airways picture.

This is PSA's final opportunity for any type of growth. Should this be declined, there will never be any more aircraft and the same crappy schedules will continue to be the norm.

Finally a pilot with intelligence! Its true you can get the aircraft now and live to fight another day. Growth is the only thing that keeps this career what it is. Without growth we would all be FOs for life just waiting for CAs to retire or waiting for attrition to get us there. Either way its a looooong road without growth. A nice contract does no good if you never hit the captain scale anyway.

 

[Victor Meldrew]

I have been around aviation for quite a while and I spent 5 years with a crap-hole company that constantly fed us the "oh, if we do this, if we get this, good things will happen" line. I have a pretty good BS detector, and I honestly believe that PSA will keep the 200's online and will continue to run them on the short to mid-range segments. Hopefully, the 200's will take over the extremely short flights to allow the 700's and 900's to handle all of the mid-long range flights. Of course, no one knows exactly what will happen until it happens. I just hope for sake of PSA and my job, that the pilot group accepts the offer and keep PSA in the game.

I find it hard to believe that PSA will retain the same number of 200's as it does now IF it accepts 900's. Parker has openly said at a couple of his road shows this year that what USAir has to much of is 50 seat feed and he would like to see that number reduced and replaced with 70/90's, (check THE HUB for the video meetings - I believe CLT in may has one).

What is going to happen is PSA will accept this offer along with the pay, get 900's and see 200's go 1 for 1. Now you are stuck with zero growth, still the same pay and from what I hear bad schedules (if they can be worse than AWAC's right now you do have my sympathies) and the company will be laughing all the way to the bank and so will it's share holders, not to mention PSA will be giving our (AWAC) owners more money in their pocket also!!

 

[jetfo]

If it is a one-for-one replacement, there will be no growth! (except for mgmt's bonus) If these planes don't show at the regional level (ie, it costs the company in the ballpark of what the 190's cost) you will still get the growth. Captains go to mainline, Sr. Fos upgrade, Jr fos get better schedules. You still have your pride.

These are growth aircraft according to the proposal. Regardless what PSA or any other carrier does, this will not create growth at US Airways. They will be flown at one regional or another!

 

[jetfo]

From everything that has been said at PSA regarding the offer for the 900's, the 200's WILL remain online and the 900's will be used for long haul trips and not for the pathetic CLT-GSO round trips that the 700's are doing. What does this mean? 900 long hauls would mean a possibility of 1 or 2 western bases opening. DFW, IAH, STL, maybe even PHX, who knows. Possible international flights out of CLT again. Growth for PSA is a good thing. Lots of upgrades, everyone moves up in seniority, and potentially better schedules instead of 13 hour duty days with 7 hours of scheduled flying.

I believe that if the pilot group approves the 900's to come on property, good things will happen. If the 900's are declined, it is a matter of time before PSA is forced out of the US Airways picture.

This is PSA's final opportunity for any type of growth. Should this be declined, there will never be any more aircraft and the same crappy schedules will continue to be the norm.

Thank God for some folks that actually know what they are talking about!

 

[jetfo]

If you believe that to be true PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get it in writing. AWAC pilots were told we had financing for 20 more 200s if we just took a concession for United flying. Guess what, didn't happen. Anything you think that's positive that could happen from this GET IT IN WRITING. Otherwise, you've got nothing.

When I see words like "sounds like" I get nervous now. Of course it's going to "sound like" things are going to be great! They want you to think that. I'm not saying refuse them at all costs just make sure that what you agree to will actually happen the way you've been told. That's all. I won't undercut you. Please, don't undercut us.

Fair enough, and "good point get it in writing and have consequences in place!"

As President Reagan used to say, "trust but verify!"

 

[jetfo]

I have been around aviation for quite a while and I spent 5 years with a crap-hole company that constantly fed us the "oh, if we do this, if we get this, good things will happen" line. I have a pretty good BS detector, and I honestly believe that PSA will keep the 200's online and will continue to run them on the short to mid-range segments. Hopefully, the 200's will take over the extremely short flights to allow the 700's and 900's to handle all of the mid-long range flights. Of course, no one knows exactly what will happen until it happens. I just hope for sake of PSA and my job, that the pilot group accepts the offer and keep PSA in the game.

I think you're right!

 

[jetfo]

This is exactly where alpa (national) needs to step in and control the situation. (TSA/G*jets, another I believe and every other whipsaw that's occured) Set a nationwide rate / or cost of operting per aircraft. Whether it's through pay rates, vacation amounts/ rigs / etc etc.....And not allow a carrier to go below that.
If PSA had the safety of knowing that they could turn these aircraft away, without another carrier coming in and agreeing to do it, there wouldn't be any argument as to what to do. But the current situation, where MESA has 900's currently operating on the property, one would fathom and No vote would send these things quicker than you can say it, straight to Mesa or somewhere, and I would put money on it that pilot group wouldn't think too hard on taking on the a/c. Get all the MEC's together and agree to do it for X amount min. and you negate the whipsaw. It is this situation that allows management to come in with a straight face, and give a take it or leave it offer. They know they have 5 other whores, they can go proposition. So we are number two.


Crzi:
Couldn't agree with you more. No single pilot group or MEC can fix this situation. ALPA needs to step up to the plate for the good of all of their members.

 

[jetfo]

I find it hard to believe that PSA will retain the same number of 200's as it does now IF it accepts 900's. Parker has openly said at a couple of his road shows this year that what USAir has to much of is 50 seat feed and he would like to see that number reduced and replaced with 70/90's, (check THE HUB for the video meetings - I believe CLT in may has one).

What is going to happen is PSA will accept this offer along with the pay, get 900's and see 200's go 1 for 1. Now you are stuck with zero growth, still the same pay and from what I hear bad schedules (if they can be worse than AWAC's right now you do have my sympathies) and the company will be laughing all the way to the bank and so will it's share holders, not to mention PSA will be giving our (AWAC) owners more money in their pocket also!!

I don't think you are right, but anything can happen. If we accept, our MEC will have contractual guarantees in place that will put us in no worse position than before.
The US Airways 50 seat flying that is going away is Mesa, TSA, and CHQ. Although, we already know that our 200s will eventually be traded for 700/705/900s. That has been a long standing plan. The proposal clearly calls for growth aircraft 20 + 20. I imagine that the 200s will be replaced with 700/705/900s over time.

 

[LoveGun]

JetFO,

I like your optimism. How do you know for sure these are growth aircraft? The plan could very well change, or it could be a lie. We need to protect ourselves against that possibility.

 

[whatfuelpolicy]

JetFO,

I like your optimism. How do you know for sure these are growth aircraft? The plan could very well change, or it could be a lie. We need to protect ourselves against that possibility.

Declining the 900's is not protecting anyone at PSA. If the 900's don't come on board, then PSA is probably finished. Aside from the pilot group, word at the other PSA facilities (OCC specifically) is that we are growing to 68 airplanes with the option for 20 more. There has been no mention of getting rid of the 200's. If Parker is truly going to get rid of Mesa, CHQ, and TSA, PSA cannot afford to lose the 200's due to all of the additional routes that we will acquire. Dont count on PSA losing the 200's.