Procedure debate

[mesaba13]

It is very difficult to violate a pilot unless there is a clear-cut reg that is broken.

 

[ksu_aviator]

This is the first time in this thread that you've contextually used the word 'required' correctly as it pertains to vacating an altitude.

Still, it logically seems to me that this requirement is met when accepting your DP clearance and therefor redundant to call again.

I tell you what, the next time that you accept a PD clearance, acknowledge it by saying "vacating xxx for xxx at our discretion".
Problem solved!

Well, there is your problem right there. You are trying to apply logic to the FAA.

I am sorry that I didn't put together a proper collegiate level thesis on an anonymous internet forum for you. I wasn't aware that I would be graded on context, grammar and spelling. Fortunately my spelling and punctuation errors didn't fall to a level that caught your attention.

Is it redundant to announce your departure from an altitude after accepting a PD? Sure. But it is also required. How many other redundant procedures do we have? Checklists maybe?

Just because it is redundant doesn't mean it isn't required.

 

[sayrejm]

Have any of you ever thought to ask a controller? They are the reasons we do all these things anyway right? So THEY don't tell someone about US? So just ask a few and see if the debate continues... then again i was in a tower once and saw a target overhead the class C with no alt readout and i asked "isnt he supposed to have mode C?" and the controller said "i dont think so, why?" so maybe they dont even know......

 

[FlyingPieceOfSt]

I know this is a serious topic since it involves an adult beverage going to the victor.

All of you have come up with some good points.

I feel the best general practice for day to day use when it comes to PD clearances is to cover your butt. (Tell ATC you are descending whether it is busy or not busy on the frequency) I sometimes ask myself to think what it would be like explaining to an FAA official after I have been red flagged for anything I did to MAYBE cause that situation. If I cover my bases such as including the call out that I am leaving an altitude on a PD clearance then I will feel better about it after it is communicated.

By the look of this thread it is hard to definitely pick a winner. Grey area is correct.

 

[Bandit60]

I hear all the aurguments..but has anyone ever asked the controllers..I have asked many of my friends who are controllers at large centers and approach controls. They all said the same thing to me. "If I wanted you to make another radio call I would not have given you a PD clearence."

End of story for me!!

 

[rice]

Well, there is your problem right there. You are trying to apply logic to the FAA.

I am sorry that I didn't put together a proper collegiate level thesis on an anonymous internet forum for you. I wasn't aware that I would be graded on context, grammar and spelling. Fortunately my spelling and punctuation errors didn't fall to a level that caught your attention.

Is it redundant to announce your departure from an altitude after accepting a PD? Sure. But it is also required. How many other redundant procedures do we have? Checklists maybe?

Just because it is redundant doesn't mean it isn't required.

Again I ask you, prove your claim that it is required. I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with you) but if you are going to take such a staunch (sp?) position, prove it to me. I'll be happy to come over to your side of the fence with proper documentation.

 

[G4G5]

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap5/aim0503.html

5-3-3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance specifying VFR-on-top.
(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.
(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)
(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.
(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.
(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.



Not to take this to another level but what about international, do you make a level off call?

Ex London Control tells you to descend to FL210, do you call, "level 210" upon reaching FL210?

 

[o2bflyn]

Pardon my laziness for not reading the entire thread.

Depending on how long until start down it is not a bad idea to call vacating you altitude. For the simple fact that the control may have forgotten he gave it to you and accidentally vectored someone underneath you.

It is mentioned in the AIM several times for many reasons, but let's all remember the AIM is not regulatory.

So, it is not regulatory but in some situations it can be considered a good operating procedure and a courtesy.

 

[jman90]

You're owed a beer

[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]​

Chapter 5. Air Traffic Procedures
[SIZE=+1] Section 3. En Route Procedures[/SIZE]

5-3-3. Additional Reports ​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.


Main Entry: pro·ce·dure
Pronunciation: \prə-ˈsē-jər\
Function: noun
Etymology: French procédure, from Middle French, from proceder
Date: circa 1611
1 a : a particular way of accomplishing something or of acting b : a step in a procedure
2 a : a series of steps followed in a regular definite order <legal procedure> <a surgical procedure> b : a set of instructions for a computer that has a name by which it can be called into action
3 a : a traditional or established way of doing things


Main Entry: should
Pronunciation: \shəd, ˈshu̇d\
Function: verbal auxiliary
Etymology: Middle English sholde, from Old English sceolde owed, was obliged to, ought to
Date: before 12th century
past of shall 1 —used in auxiliary function to express condition <if he should leave his father, his father would die — Gen 44:22(Revised Standard Version)>
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency <'tis commanded I should do so — Shakespeare> <this is as it should be — H. L. Savage> <you should brush your teeth after each meal>
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past <realized that she should have to do most of her farm work before sunrise — Ellen Glasgow>
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected

 

[LJ45]

doesn't say must.