Procedure debate

[ksu_aviator]

Where in the AIM does it say that you should report leaving every altitude you level off at?? You just made that up!

The requirement is to make a report when vacating an altitude. If you occupy an altitude for a significant amount of time, you are required to vacate it.

 

[K.V.]

The requirement is to make a report when vacating an altitude. If you occupy an altitude for a significant amount of time, you are required to vacate it.

No, the requirement is to make a report when vacating an assigned altitude, and once again after accepting a PD clearance, you are no longer flying at an assigned altitude. Your new assigned altitude is the one the controller cleared you to descend to at your discretion.

Here's the thing, people are creatures of habit. If making a vacating call after receiving a PD clearance is what you've been doing your whole flying career and it gives you the 'warm and fuzzies', then by all means do it. It doesn't cost any extra. But this by no means makes it a 'requirement', which is what the OP was asking about.

 

[ksu_aviator]

No, the requirement is to make a report when vacating an assigned altitude, and once again after accepting a PD clearance, you are no longer flying at an assigned altitude. Your new assigned altitude is the one the controller cleared you to descend to at your discretion.

Here's the thing, people are creatures of habit. If making a vacating call after receiving a PD clearance is what you've been doing your whole flying career and it gives you the 'warm and fuzzies', then by all means do it. It doesn't cost any extra. But this by no means makes it a 'requirement', which is what the OP was asking about.

Ok, I can buy that you don't have to make the call at an intermediate altitude on a PD. However, when you are assigned a PD you are still assigned the current altitude. If not, you could not remain there. In any event, at some point you were assigned that altitude so even if the clearance is "descend and maintain...." you are still required to reply "leaving XX, descending XX...." or "vacating xx."

 

[K.V.]

Ok, I can buy that you don't have to make the call at an intermediate altitude on a PD. However, when you are assigned a PD you are still assigned the current altitude.

No sir, you are not! Think about it, how can a controller logistically give you two assigned altitudes?

If not, you could not remain there.

Why not? It's no different than every other intermediate altitude that you're allowed to level off and remain at.

 

[paulsalem]

No, the requirement is to make a report when vacating an assigned altitude, and once again after accepting a PD clearance, you are no longer flying at an assigned altitude. Your new assigned altitude is the one the controller cleared you to descend to at your discretion.

So when do you need to report leaving an altitude?

 

[Basil]

No, the requirement is to make a report when vacating an assigned altitude, and once again after accepting a PD clearance, you are no longer flying at an assigned altitude. Your new assigned altitude is the one the controller cleared you to descend to at your discretion.

Nope. If that were true, this requirement would be totally worthless as it would be impossible to vacate the currently assigned altitude (because it's always a different altitude from the altitude currently being flown and you haven't gotten there yet).

If at FL410 with PD to FL350, FL350 becomes the newly assigned altitude, and FL410 is the previously assigned altitude, but it was an assigned altitude nonetheless and it should be reported when vacated.

Like many other procedures in the AIM, it probably was written to be used non-radar, but it is in there, so it is required.

 

[rice]

Well, not exactly true. With "Pilot's Discretion" you are cleared to fly the new clearance when ever you like. You are still cleared to fly at your current altitude, you are also cleared to fly at any altitude between your present altitude and the assigned altitude.

Do you have to report leaving the altitude? Yes. In fact, you are supposed to report leaving an altitude on any altitude change (while not on an approach). I don't personally do it because it seems to me that if you accept the clearance the logical conclusion is that you are vacating your previous altitude, but I have heard plenty of pilots make the report.

As for finding it in the FARs, you won't. Here's why. They don't create a regulation for every procedural aspect of flight. There's no regulation that says you have to put the gear down...is there? No. Some of that stuff just has to be assumed and if you do do something stupid like leaving the gear up on landing, they've always got the catch all 91.13 Careless and Reckless Operation.

Back to "Pilot's Discretion" for a moment. Reporting leaving your first altitude is required. Also, should you level off at some altitude in between, reporting leaving that altitude is required as well. It is in the AIM, it is required and it can be a violation (though probably won't be unless you cause a serious problem and the FAA has nothing else on you).

The requirement is to make a report when vacating an altitude. If you occupy an altitude for a significant amount of time, you are required to vacate it.

Ok, I can buy that you don't have to make the call at an intermediate altitude on a PD. However, when you are assigned a PD you are still assigned the current altitude. If not, you could not remain there. In any event, at some point you were assigned that altitude so even if the clearance is "descend and maintain...." you are still required to reply "leaving XX, descending XX...." or "vacating xx."

I'm no FAR whiz but you keep spouting off on this thread using the word required.
Yet at no time throughout this thread have you cited any reference for this requirement.
I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with your argument). But I am concerned that in your position as a Chief Pilot you have the opportunity to educate and mold the present and next generation of professional pilots, however it appears that you may be doing more proselytizing than educating with references and facts.
Like I said earlier, I usually report leaving an altitude after being given a PD clearance but I never felt the need to and I've never seen a reg. or reference to one that requires me to do so.
Prove it to me, I'm always willing to learn something new.

 

[c130drvr]

In this exact situation I had a controller chew me out for not telling him. I apologized and figured it was just my lack of knowledge on the regs. I later called a center manager and asked for his take on the situation. He indicated that it was a helpful courtesy but probably a bit of a gray area.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I'm no FAR whiz but you keep spouting off on this thread using the word required.
Yet at no time throughout this thread have you cited any reference for this requirement.
I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with your argument). But I am concerned that in your position as a Chief Pilot you have the opportunity to educate and mold the present and next generation of professional pilots, however it appears that you may be doing more proselytizing than educating with references and facts.
Like I said earlier, I usually report leaving an altitude after being given a PD clearance but I never felt the need to and I've never seen a reg. or reference to one that requires me to do so.
Prove it to me, I'm always willing to learn something new.

First off, why repost something that is already in the thread? Several people posted the AIM sections that cover this. As for being required and being a regulation, there is a difference. A concept a lot of people don't seem to grasp. The regulations don't post every single requirement. Some required procedures are in the AIM. Try not reading back a hold short. You won't find it in the FARs, but you damn well better do it. There is also nothing about using the phonetic alphabet. Nor is there anything that says you can't key your mic and hold it.

You are required to make the a call when vacating a previously assigned altitude. It is in the AIM....Chapter 4.

 

[K.V.]

I'm no FAR whiz but you keep spouting off on this thread using the word required.
Yet at no time throughout this thread have you cited any reference for this requirement.
I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with your argument). But I am concerned that in your position as a Chief Pilot you have the opportunity to educate and mold the present and next generation of professional pilots, however it appears that you may be doing more proselytizing than educating with references and facts.
Like I said earlier, I usually report leaving an altitude after being given a PD clearance but I never felt the need to and I've never seen a reg. or reference to one that requires me to do so.
Prove it to me, I'm always willing to learn something new.

First off, why repost something that is already in the thread? Several people posted the AIM sections that cover this. As for being required and being a regulation, there is a difference. A concept a lot of people don't seem to grasp. The regulations don't post every single requirement. Some required procedures are in the AIM. Try not reading back a hold short. You won't find it in the FARs, but you damn well better do it. There is also nothing about using the phonetic alphabet. Nor is there anything that says you can't key your mic and hold it.

You are required to make the a call when vacating a previously assigned altitude. It is in the AIM....Chapter 4.

This is the first time in this thread that you've contextually used the word 'required' correctly as it pertains to vacating an altitude.

Still, it logically seems to me that this requirement is met when accepting your DP clearance and therefor redundant to call again.

I tell you what, the next time that you accept a PD clearance, acknowledge it by saying "vacating xxx for xxx at our discretion".
Problem solved!