Procedure debate

[Basil]

No, the requirement is to make a report when vacating an assigned altitude, and once again after accepting a PD clearance, you are no longer flying at an assigned altitude. Your new assigned altitude is the one the controller cleared you to descend to at your discretion.

Nope. If that were true, this requirement would be totally worthless as it would be impossible to vacate the currently assigned altitude (because it's always a different altitude from the altitude currently being flown and you haven't gotten there yet).

If at FL410 with PD to FL350, FL350 becomes the newly assigned altitude, and FL410 is the previously assigned altitude, but it was an assigned altitude nonetheless and it should be reported when vacated.

Like many other procedures in the AIM, it probably was written to be used non-radar, but it is in there, so it is required.

 

[rice]

Well, not exactly true. With "Pilot's Discretion" you are cleared to fly the new clearance when ever you like. You are still cleared to fly at your current altitude, you are also cleared to fly at any altitude between your present altitude and the assigned altitude.

Do you have to report leaving the altitude? Yes. In fact, you are supposed to report leaving an altitude on any altitude change (while not on an approach). I don't personally do it because it seems to me that if you accept the clearance the logical conclusion is that you are vacating your previous altitude, but I have heard plenty of pilots make the report.

As for finding it in the FARs, you won't. Here's why. They don't create a regulation for every procedural aspect of flight. There's no regulation that says you have to put the gear down...is there? No. Some of that stuff just has to be assumed and if you do do something stupid like leaving the gear up on landing, they've always got the catch all 91.13 Careless and Reckless Operation.

Back to "Pilot's Discretion" for a moment. Reporting leaving your first altitude is required. Also, should you level off at some altitude in between, reporting leaving that altitude is required as well. It is in the AIM, it is required and it can be a violation (though probably won't be unless you cause a serious problem and the FAA has nothing else on you).

The requirement is to make a report when vacating an altitude. If you occupy an altitude for a significant amount of time, you are required to vacate it.

Ok, I can buy that you don't have to make the call at an intermediate altitude on a PD. However, when you are assigned a PD you are still assigned the current altitude. If not, you could not remain there. In any event, at some point you were assigned that altitude so even if the clearance is "descend and maintain...." you are still required to reply "leaving XX, descending XX...." or "vacating xx."

I'm no FAR whiz but you keep spouting off on this thread using the word required.
Yet at no time throughout this thread have you cited any reference for this requirement.
I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with your argument). But I am concerned that in your position as a Chief Pilot you have the opportunity to educate and mold the present and next generation of professional pilots, however it appears that you may be doing more proselytizing than educating with references and facts.
Like I said earlier, I usually report leaving an altitude after being given a PD clearance but I never felt the need to and I've never seen a reg. or reference to one that requires me to do so.
Prove it to me, I'm always willing to learn something new.

 

[c130drvr]

In this exact situation I had a controller chew me out for not telling him. I apologized and figured it was just my lack of knowledge on the regs. I later called a center manager and asked for his take on the situation. He indicated that it was a helpful courtesy but probably a bit of a gray area.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I'm no FAR whiz but you keep spouting off on this thread using the word required.
Yet at no time throughout this thread have you cited any reference for this requirement.
I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with your argument). But I am concerned that in your position as a Chief Pilot you have the opportunity to educate and mold the present and next generation of professional pilots, however it appears that you may be doing more proselytizing than educating with references and facts.
Like I said earlier, I usually report leaving an altitude after being given a PD clearance but I never felt the need to and I've never seen a reg. or reference to one that requires me to do so.
Prove it to me, I'm always willing to learn something new.

First off, why repost something that is already in the thread? Several people posted the AIM sections that cover this. As for being required and being a regulation, there is a difference. A concept a lot of people don't seem to grasp. The regulations don't post every single requirement. Some required procedures are in the AIM. Try not reading back a hold short. You won't find it in the FARs, but you damn well better do it. There is also nothing about using the phonetic alphabet. Nor is there anything that says you can't key your mic and hold it.

You are required to make the a call when vacating a previously assigned altitude. It is in the AIM....Chapter 4.

 

[K.V.]

I'm no FAR whiz but you keep spouting off on this thread using the word required.
Yet at no time throughout this thread have you cited any reference for this requirement.
I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with your argument). But I am concerned that in your position as a Chief Pilot you have the opportunity to educate and mold the present and next generation of professional pilots, however it appears that you may be doing more proselytizing than educating with references and facts.
Like I said earlier, I usually report leaving an altitude after being given a PD clearance but I never felt the need to and I've never seen a reg. or reference to one that requires me to do so.
Prove it to me, I'm always willing to learn something new.

First off, why repost something that is already in the thread? Several people posted the AIM sections that cover this. As for being required and being a regulation, there is a difference. A concept a lot of people don't seem to grasp. The regulations don't post every single requirement. Some required procedures are in the AIM. Try not reading back a hold short. You won't find it in the FARs, but you damn well better do it. There is also nothing about using the phonetic alphabet. Nor is there anything that says you can't key your mic and hold it.

You are required to make the a call when vacating a previously assigned altitude. It is in the AIM....Chapter 4.

This is the first time in this thread that you've contextually used the word 'required' correctly as it pertains to vacating an altitude.

Still, it logically seems to me that this requirement is met when accepting your DP clearance and therefor redundant to call again.

I tell you what, the next time that you accept a PD clearance, acknowledge it by saying "vacating xxx for xxx at our discretion".
Problem solved!

 

[mesaba13]

It is very difficult to violate a pilot unless there is a clear-cut reg that is broken.

 

[ksu_aviator]

This is the first time in this thread that you've contextually used the word 'required' correctly as it pertains to vacating an altitude.

Still, it logically seems to me that this requirement is met when accepting your DP clearance and therefor redundant to call again.

I tell you what, the next time that you accept a PD clearance, acknowledge it by saying "vacating xxx for xxx at our discretion".
Problem solved!

Well, there is your problem right there. You are trying to apply logic to the FAA.

I am sorry that I didn't put together a proper collegiate level thesis on an anonymous internet forum for you. I wasn't aware that I would be graded on context, grammar and spelling. Fortunately my spelling and punctuation errors didn't fall to a level that caught your attention.

Is it redundant to announce your departure from an altitude after accepting a PD? Sure. But it is also required. How many other redundant procedures do we have? Checklists maybe?

Just because it is redundant doesn't mean it isn't required.

 

[sayrejm]

Have any of you ever thought to ask a controller? They are the reasons we do all these things anyway right? So THEY don't tell someone about US? So just ask a few and see if the debate continues... then again i was in a tower once and saw a target overhead the class C with no alt readout and i asked "isnt he supposed to have mode C?" and the controller said "i dont think so, why?" so maybe they dont even know......

 

[FlyingPieceOfSt]

I know this is a serious topic since it involves an adult beverage going to the victor.

All of you have come up with some good points.

I feel the best general practice for day to day use when it comes to PD clearances is to cover your butt. (Tell ATC you are descending whether it is busy or not busy on the frequency) I sometimes ask myself to think what it would be like explaining to an FAA official after I have been red flagged for anything I did to MAYBE cause that situation. If I cover my bases such as including the call out that I am leaving an altitude on a PD clearance then I will feel better about it after it is communicated.

By the look of this thread it is hard to definitely pick a winner. Grey area is correct.

 

[Bandit60]

I hear all the aurguments..but has anyone ever asked the controllers..I have asked many of my friends who are controllers at large centers and approach controls. They all said the same thing to me. "If I wanted you to make another radio call I would not have given you a PD clearence."

End of story for me!!

 

[rice]

Well, there is your problem right there. You are trying to apply logic to the FAA.

I am sorry that I didn't put together a proper collegiate level thesis on an anonymous internet forum for you. I wasn't aware that I would be graded on context, grammar and spelling. Fortunately my spelling and punctuation errors didn't fall to a level that caught your attention.

Is it redundant to announce your departure from an altitude after accepting a PD? Sure. But it is also required. How many other redundant procedures do we have? Checklists maybe?

Just because it is redundant doesn't mean it isn't required.

Again I ask you, prove your claim that it is required. I'm not saying that you're wrong (although I disagree with you) but if you are going to take such a staunch (sp?) position, prove it to me. I'll be happy to come over to your side of the fence with proper documentation.

 

[G4G5]

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap5/aim0503.html

5-3-3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance specifying VFR-on-top.
(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.
(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)
(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.
(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.
(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.



Not to take this to another level but what about international, do you make a level off call?

Ex London Control tells you to descend to FL210, do you call, "level 210" upon reaching FL210?

 

[o2bflyn]

Pardon my laziness for not reading the entire thread.

Depending on how long until start down it is not a bad idea to call vacating you altitude. For the simple fact that the control may have forgotten he gave it to you and accidentally vectored someone underneath you.

It is mentioned in the AIM several times for many reasons, but let's all remember the AIM is not regulatory.

So, it is not regulatory but in some situations it can be considered a good operating procedure and a courtesy.

 

[jman90]

You're owed a beer

[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]​

Chapter 5. Air Traffic Procedures
[SIZE=+1] Section 3. En Route Procedures[/SIZE]

5-3-3. Additional Reports ​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.


Main Entry: pro·ce·dure
Pronunciation: \prə-ˈsē-jər\
Function: noun
Etymology: French procédure, from Middle French, from proceder
Date: circa 1611
1 a : a particular way of accomplishing something or of acting b : a step in a procedure
2 a : a series of steps followed in a regular definite order <legal procedure> <a surgical procedure> b : a set of instructions for a computer that has a name by which it can be called into action
3 a : a traditional or established way of doing things


Main Entry: should
Pronunciation: \shəd, ˈshu̇d\
Function: verbal auxiliary
Etymology: Middle English sholde, from Old English sceolde owed, was obliged to, ought to
Date: before 12th century
past of shall 1 —used in auxiliary function to express condition <if he should leave his father, his father would die — Gen 44:22(Revised Standard Version)>
2 —used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency <'tis commanded I should do so — Shakespeare> <this is as it should be — H. L. Savage> <you should brush your teeth after each meal>
3 —used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past <realized that she should have to do most of her farm work before sunrise — Ellen Glasgow>
4 —used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected

 

[LJ45]

doesn't say must.