Procedure debate

[ksu_aviator]

See what written?? That when you accept a new clearance you are no longer on your old clearance?

Well, not exactly true. With "Pilot's Discretion" you are cleared to fly the new clearance when ever you like. You are still cleared to fly at your current altitude, you are also cleared to fly at any altitude between your present altitude and the assigned altitude.

Do you have to report leaving the altitude? Yes. In fact, you are supposed to report leaving an altitude on any altitude change (while not on an approach). I don't personally do it because it seems to me that if you accept the clearance the logical conclusion is that you are vacating your previous altitude, but I have heard plenty of pilots make the report.

As for finding it in the FARs, you won't. Here's why. They don't create a regulation for every procedural aspect of flight. There's no regulation that says you have to put the gear down...is there? No. Some of that stuff just has to be assumed and if you do do something stupid like leaving the gear up on landing, they've always got the catch all 91.13 Careless and Reckless Operation.

Back to "Pilot's Discretion" for a moment. Reporting leaving your first altitude is required. Also, should you level off at some altitude in between, reporting leaving that altitude is required as well. It is in the AIM, it is required and it can be a violation (though probably won't be unless you cause a serious problem and the FAA has nothing else on you).

 

[waka]

Originally Posted by GravityHater
BUT some say the FAA has busted people for what IS in the AIM

I'm going to have to throw the BS card down on this one man.

I'm going to have to trump your BS card with my BS flag. The FAA can and has indeed violated pilots for not following the AIM. The reg is 91.13, Careless and reckless operation. This one covers most of what is not actually written. Also, what if a pilot is involved in a civil suit and the case was related to a pilot not following the "recommendations", in the AIM? Do you think that the defendant would win the judge's heart because he testifies, "uh, well, I figured that the AIM is not regulatory"?

I'm not saying that one would get violated for not giving a courtesy call that you're vacating an altitude. However, GravityHater's point stands.

 

[K.V.]

When a controler gives you a PD clearance and you accept it, at that time you've accepted the entire clearance limit for that block altitude. Also, by accepting the PD clearance you have vacated the previosly assigned altitude. You are no longer flying at that assigned altitude and are now opperating in the block altitude.

That's not true and it doesn't even make sense.You have not vacated a previously assigned altitude until the airplane physically leaves that altitude.

I should have added the word 'clearance' to the end of that sentence. "by accepting the PD clearance you have vacated the previously assigned altitude clearance."

 

[K.V.]

Well, not exactly true. With "Pilot's Discretion" you are cleared to fly the new clearance when ever you like. You are still cleared to fly at your current altitude, you are also cleared to fly at any altitude between your present altitude and the assigned altitude.

Do you have to report leaving the altitude? Yes. In fact, you are supposed to report leaving an altitude on any altitude change (while not on an approach). I don't personally do it because it seems to me that if you accept the clearance the logical conclusion is that you are vacating your previous altitude, but I have heard plenty of pilots make the report.


Back to "Pilot's Discretion" for a moment. Reporting leaving your first altitude is required. Also, should you level off at some altitude in between, reporting leaving that altitude is required as well. It is in the AIM, it is required and it can be a violation (though probably won't be unless you cause a serious problem and the FAA has nothing else on you).

Where in the AIM does it say that you should report leaving every altitude you level off at?? You just made that up!

 

[SSDD]

Acknowledging a PD clearance is not the same as vacating the altitude. This comes up every once in a while, and the pilot community is split on either side of the issued. The thread will go 5 or 6 pages and neither group will convince the other.

BTW, I think it is a required call, but that's just me.

 

[Booker]

This comes up every once in a while, and the pilot community is split on either side of the issued. The thread will go 5 or 6 pages and neither group will convince the other.

Agreed. Luckily for me, it's in my ops manual, nice and neat, that I have to report vacating. Problem solved.

 

[SDCFI]

Think about it from an operational perspective. You're level at FL350 with discretion to FL230. ATC cannot assign another aircraft FL350 or below that would cause a loss of separation with your aircraft. You begin your descent and notify ATC. They now know FL350 is available for other aircraft in the vicinity, and it's for this reason you cannot return to FL350 whether you reported leaving it or not. By making it a pilot initiated call ATC does not have to constantly monitor an aircraft with a discretionary climb/descent to figure out when they have started it, thus relieving their workload. At least that's what I believe the intention is, whether or not it works that way in the real world I have no idea.

As far as it being regulatory I would argue no, in that if there was a fed on the jumpseat and you failed to report leaving an altitude would you expect a violation? I wouldn't. OTOH though, if you didn't and a loss of separation resulted that would have been noticed had you made the report I would expect an investigation even if the error was made by ATC.

 

[BoilerUP]

Short of getting a Chief Counsel interpretation letter with a definitive answer, the OP and his colleague could always just buy each other a beer...

 

[Fly91]

Not required. By getting PD the airspace is totally clear from your current altitude down to where they cleared you to go in the PD clearance. Like getting a block altitude to cruise in. If you wait too long to descend and traffic is getting closer ATC will call you and tell you to start down or cancel your PD clearance.

But you know how the FAA is......if a problem ever occurs in your PD descent and there's a traffic issue and you didn't call "leaving XXX altitude" they will use that to burn your azz. So just do it everytime.

 

[SSDD]

People who say the AIM is not regulatory, are like the people who say they don't have to pay income taxes because its not in the constitution. They get away with it for a while, but sooner or later they get busted.