Position and Hold Clearence's Not Auihorized come September

[Vector4fun]

Perhaps I am wrong, but is there really a safety issue by holding an airplane in position at the approach end of a runway on a clear day?

You wouldn't think so; (assuming IQs in the high double digits on both sides of the mike.) but I saw a PA28 land over the top of a DL B737 one afternoon when the vis was 50+ miles. Unfortunately, I didn't see it until it was too late to avoid the "deal". Fortunately, it wasn't my deal.

I also saw a Bonanza try to land opposite direction to a B737 arrival. (BZ was aligned with wrong runway) When queried why he didn't see the Boeing while short final, pilot replied he DID see the Boeing, but he was gonna land anyway.

You can't make this stuff up.....

 

[2000flyer]

The only answer for the runway problem is more concrete. Lots more. Wouldn't it be great to taxi AROUND a runway?

BTW, Lrjtcapt, did you see a copy of the FAA letter to the guy in N90? Not good.

ISRT - They do that in Milan. GA ramp is midfield on the west side (if memory serves). Taking off to the north, you taxi north around the north end of the 9000' runway then all the way south to the end. Thats what, 13,500' of taxi, over 2-miles. It wasn't long after I was there they tried taxiing a Citation across midfield and they took out the MD80 on takeoff.

2000Flyer

 

[FlyChicaga]

Last week, clear day in CLE, had the controller issue a position and hold clearance to us with SWA on three mile final. Luckily SWA spoke up about the time I saw him on final (my side), so we were still clear of the runway.

I'm on the fence here. While this would increase safety, I think it might be overkill. Maybe another alternative might be better.

 

[91100 100 set]

Instead of restricting the use of "position and hold" why not decrease the practice of having a single controller running local, ground, clearance, etc, all at once? I know budgets are tight, and manpower is probably the easiest way to stretch a buck (until an accident occurs of course), but this would be a far more effective way to increase safety.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Ive put people on the runway and forgotten about them, but that is usually when we are slower then slow can be. when its busy I don't forget a plane. This waiver shouldn't be too tough to get issued for facilities, its just a way for the FAA to make the system seem safer, slow the traffic down and then blame controllers for all the delays. Truly amazing. Lets do RVSM but do away with position and hold.

 

[avbug]

Instead of restricting the use of "position and hold" why not decrease the practice of having a single controller running local, ground, clearance, etc, all at once?

That wouldn't fix the situation at all...just add more voices and more frequencies and more people who must coordinate to prevent a runway incursion.

Runway incursions have been a hot potato for several years now (potatoe if you're Dan Quayle)...we're generally talking accidental incursions when someone taxies where they're not supposed to be. Confuse that by putting people intentionally on the runway to sit and wait, and the potential increases by a large margin.

Crossing train tracks is potentially dangerous...there's one place the trains congregate and travel, and that's on the tracks. If you're going to get hit by a train, it's going to be while crossing the tracks. Running through traffic on the highway is more dangerous than being off the highway, normally. Standing in front of a loaded weapon is generally a whole lot less dangerous than standing behind it, though weapons of serious stature kill in front and wound behind. Being on an active runway should be considered nothing different than being on the train tracks...spend as little time as you can there.

Unless I know I'll be rolling right away, I don't like spending any more time on the runway than I must. It's the one place that everybody intends to go on every flight it's potentially the greatest chance of having an incursion and accident, and one should minimize one's time there to the shortest interval possible. Avoiding positioning and holding accomplishes this just fine.

 

[flyinloki]

Slightly off subject but still within limits. Was flyin into ANE in Minneapolis on thrusday and the controller said if i wanted 36 or 27. Wind was right down the runway on 27 so I choose that and he clears me to land like 6 miles out. Well I'm on dwind, then base and as I am turning base to short final he clears an "experimental" (which in actuallity a type of trainer jet or something) for takeoff on runway 36. My mind does a really quick click and I chime in and say. "ummmm tower 12345 is on a short final to 27". Hes like, "ohhhhh, thx for that, experimental 123 position and hold". Think thats really about the first time in 8 years of flying that a controller has cleared an aircraft for takeoff while i'm on short final on a crossing runway. The timing prolly woulda been perfect too. By the time I hit the concrete he prolly woulda been in takeoff roll approaching me fast. Just goes to show I guess to always be alert. Tower controllers are human too and we have to back em up.