Pinnacle Washout Rate

[DirkkDiggler]

[QUOTE HAZ-MAT]"Let me chime in - MY JET IS BIGGER THAN YOUR JET AND MY FLIGHT ATTENDANT CAN BEAT UP YOUR FLIGHT ATTENDANT!!!"

AND
[QUOTE HAZ-MAT]The Lear 35 burns as much as a Caravan does in cruise... however... in the Lear we're at FL430, and in the Van, i was at 4,000!!!

The first part of your quote sound like a tongue in cheek comment. But then your second quote really makes you sound like an idiot because you negate your initial quote.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

You're right, I am an idiot, thanks boss for pointing that out.

 

[Pukindog]

FYI... Riddle students do not operate the DA-20s or the MD-90 simulator. This is from the CAPT 'wonder pilot' program, which is basically a "Freedom Airlines" operations. It was created to bypass the Riddle instructor pilots (unionized) and around their contract to try to break the union! The capt guys are total morons... they pay $80,000... no degree included and think they will fly for Airtran with 300 hours (not joking).

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

Pinnacle washout rate

I'm still interested if anyone has any information on the Pinnacle washout rate. Last time I looked, that was the name of this thread, right?

Any Pinnacle new hires out there?? Let us know how things went in training. I want the good, the bad and even the ugly! Also, any tips on how not to become a "washout" at Pinnacle.

I want to know what I'm getting myself into.

 

[Lear70]

Well, I would have posted earlier, but there's so much trash talk on here I had to take a couple days to get through it... *snicker*


The washout rate in initial training is usually around the 10% mark, i.e. in a class of 20 you'll lose about 2 or even 3 who either:

a. thought they were too good and didn't bother studying their AS* off like everyone else.

b. didn't have the ability to quickly develop a scan in an all-glass aircraft if they've never flown one before PLUS learn all the callouts, FMA modes, and which mode to shoot which approach in PLUS learn how to fly a swept-wing jet through V1 cuts and rejected landings with an engine seizure just as they finish spooling up.

c. were too much of a tool and kept saying, "At XYZ airline" or "At XYZ university we did it THIS way." That smack will get you booted just as fast as anything else. No one gives a shiznit if you graduated from ERAU or UND or Polly's School of Beauty across from Graceland or even if you haven't graduated yet; we have several pilots doing their degrees through correspondence who know a degree doesn't make you a better pilot. Better at general knowledge and people skills? Maybe, but not a better pilot.

Fact is, your friend evidently already had a problem and shouldn't have jumped right on the bandwagon of another jet job, but rather found a turboprop 121 or even 135 job out there to build some turbine experience. Not everyone can go straight from a 152 to a CRJ; some simply have better instincts . It doesn't mean they won't EVENTUALLY learn enough to make the next step, nor does it mean they shouldn't be in the business; it's not NASA, it's a d*mn CRJ...

That said, you have to ensure some level of protection against people who can't cut it right now. Just like you have to ensure that guys trying to upgrade will get weeded if they can't manage the aircraft AND maintain situational awareness. Incidentally, the washout rate for captain upgrade is even higher than the INH washout rate (last I heard it was around 20%).

Hope that better answers your question.

P.S. I only went to Middle Tennessee State so I guess I should just be grateful I can get a jumpseat, huh? I have several friends here at PCL that went to ERAU and I don't recall a single one of them ever bragging about it - the one that did got fired 90 days after finishing OE. Just drop it... the cute little 19 year old flight attendant will NOT be impressed.

 

[CubanSmoker]

Hey thanks! An answer to my post! It only took 4 pages to get it too!

Just kidding (kinda). Unfortunately, I agree with Lear70 completely on the fact that he's going to have to get a turbo prop job somewhere or just go back to some other job. But the 2-3 out of 20 or so is what I was wondering.

This thread turned in to some serious Riddle bashing. I've got nothing against them. I've ran in to a few "I am better than you because I went to ERAU" but they lose that attitude fast when some old fart captain reams their a$$ and convinces them they can't fly for $hit. But the captain doesn't care what university you came from - their just pissed they have to babysit the new guy instead of sleeping at FL310.

There is a ERAU grad/newhire in my crashpad and he might have to get a different job soon. His student loans come out of their grace period in Feb or somewhere near then and his payments plus rent far exceed his income. He can't figure out what he is going to do but I can't stop wondering what he expected to make when he got in at a regional! I feel sorry for him but holy crap, you can't pay for $100K+ in student loans on $22K a year income!

 

[T-Gates]

I feel sorry for him but holy crap, you can't pay for $100K+ in student loans on $22K a year income!

There should be a legal disclamer to that effect on all those embarassing Kit Darby/Tab Express/etc. ads.

 

[fly4ever]

Lear70,

I enjoy your posts but please don't try to send any of your low timer(or otherwise) busts to XJ so they can get a "121 turboprop" job thinking it will be easier. I would put almost any of our Saab guys ahead of most of your CRJ guys in skill level.

 

[flagshipper]

In my training class at 9e back in early summer we lost 25% out of 20. Most of them were having major problems with the fms and FCP (autopilot) You would tell them to descend to 3k and on current heading join the arrival and they would just stare off into space. I had 3 sim partners who did not make it (maybe it was me) But the 5 guys who did not make it were also the 5 oldest guys in the class which might explain the FMS computer literacy issue. Not trying to take shots just trying to explain. The ground instructors suck A@#. Most of them have never seen the CRJ in real life but they are nice and if you do plenty of independent study you will be fine. The sim instructors are mostly furloughed delta guys who have 3-7 years of CRJ experience at ASA or comair and they do a great job. Some of the newer instructors coming on board are ground instructors with no CRJ experience. That will suck once (or should I say if) the Delta guys get called back. It talking with some guys on oe last week they are getting nicer and nicer. The last class of 22 had 5 people fail and they all got retakes and 2 of them got a third try. When I went through they kicked the guys in my class out before they even got to the last sim session. Good luck just study hard and you will be fine

 

[DoinTime]

Lear70,
I would put almost any of our Saab guys ahead of most of your CRJ guys in skill level.

How can you possibly make a statement like this with a straight face? You must not have been referring to yourself when you touted "most" of your Saab guys are more skilled because you just showed everyone your depth of knowledge.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Degree...non-degree

ERAU....not ERAU...


Do you not all work for REGIONAL AIRLINES?????

c'mon folks - this is the dumb making fun of the dumber...

 

[dondk]

As a person just coming through upgrade and seeing 2 N/H classes through the mill... The washout rate is about 20%, of each class of 24. The second try rate is about 30% (2 tries to qualify). The company is realizing the well is drying up for qualified peep's, they are working harder to make sure they pass. You have to remember, many will not upgrade for many years, many are just happy to be employed and with a contract coming due.. that can a factor on the company side. Some may (stretching here) feel they owe the company a favor for giving them multiple chances to stay employed.

Our training program has (key word) come leaps and bounds from about 3 years ago. It still has a long way to go though. It really starts at the ground school level with instructors who have never flown the CRJ, some have real airline experience, some do not. The days of the rampers and fueler's teaching ground school is over, now they have pilot's with either TP time or heavy jet time, but not crj time. The systems class can be equated to a joke, but if you can read the systems manual and stay ahead of the class and ask questions (not all will be answered) you will do fine. Try to take each day at a time and you will be behind.

Now add into a already poor systems class a bunch of wannabee's that have either instructing, some TP time, frieght dog's and yes our streamers and you can see how a weaker student is already at a disadvantage. We only have maybe 2-4 guys in a class that actually have some decent experience in a variety of aircraft that can "help" the class along and not ask the stupid questions that take 1/2 hour for the unknowledgable instructor to attempt to answer.

The N/H that have the most amount of problems are those with no glass time and no automation time. We teach to manage the aircraft, not fly it. That in my opinion is problem #1. So you take your low time pilot with 300 multi and never had an autopilot and ask them to manage the aircraft. They have problems with the automation and are usually way behind the aircraft.

Sim instructors.. now this is a different story.. many of them have CRJ experience, they are furloughed American, United and Delta. Those who don't are former Saab drivers who worked for us at one point in time. The few remaining who are of neither category have been sim instructors for 3 years.. so they do have a clue now (3 years ago they didn't).

The program is designed to give you the basic's, you have to come to the table being able to fly an aircraft, they will try to teach you to manage the aircraft. If you have never shot an NDB approach in raw data, they are NOT going to teach you. Basic airmanship and instrument abilities are required.

A few other comment's.. we have a few ERAU/UND or "golden children" that some like to call them. 98% of them are well grounded individuals who don't let you know what school they came from. Heck, your a regional pilot now and no one really cares where you got your ratings from. The 2% who do let you know are the same 2% most other pilots avoid. I am happy they are proud of thier background and education, but that does not make them better than ANY other pilot... Nor does it mean they will score with our F/A's any faster than another pilot. Then again, if you can charm your way into the F/A's panties, you don't need a ERAU degree.

Bottom line.. as a good (Doctor) friend of mine put it.. When you go to your Doctor's office, do you look at where and WHAT they did thier undergraduate degree in? Do you look where they got thier medical degree? a grade of "C" equals M.D.

It is not different in the airlines either.. "C" equal's ATP regardless of the school or background you came from.

 

[Alchemy]

Well....I'm pretty worried about being a new hire on the ERJ. I have no autmoation time, no glass time, only flown with a few basic autopilots (no coupled approaches or anything like that), flew with a flight director in a bonanza once.

What can I do to make sure I'm not in that 20% washout figure, beyond the study/memorization assignments my company gave me after the interview 2 days ago? I'm about halfway through memorizing the flows and profiles (up to climbout now). I've got 15 days till class starts.

I quit my instructing job so I could devote at least 8 hrs per day to studying. I had a close friend wash out at this same company and can't think of a worse scenario for me personally, I'm screwed royally if that happens.

 

[another cfii]

I think what our fellow airlinker got it right. You have to come with the right attitude and ready to roll up the sleeve and get some work done. I was fortunate enough to be in a class full of people that wants to learn and get through it. So nobody got washed out, and i gave a lot of credit to our gnd. instructor (who doesn't work here anymore).

Some people say the gnd portion doesn't correlate to the sim portion, but i beg to differ. During the first few weeks of gnd., that's the golden opportunity to visit the real plane, do your flow in the real plane vs. paper tiger, and get to know your sim partner personally. All these will pay huge dividends once you start your sim training. Most people that i imagine would wash out basically either think that they have it in the bag, or the more sympathetic kind: they concentrate too much on the gnd. stuff, and forget about prepping for the sim. Sometimes you just got to have a little luck...

 

[DirkkDiggler]

I wouldn't worry about the transition to glass. There really is no scan since everything is displayed on one screen. I'd be much more worried going back the other way! Flight directors are a no-brainer too. As long as you program it correctly all you have to do is put the triangle inside the two lines. Keep the triangle and the lines touching each other and you're golden. Also, you use the autopilot as much as possible in training. Unless the instructor breaks it. That way you can sit and scan everything without having to think about controlling the aircraft. Don't get yourself too worked up prior to groundschool. I think your worst enemy in groundschool is yourself. If you psych yourself out you'll find class much more difficult. Go to class relaxed, pay attention, and study after class. If you know how to study you'll be fine. Good luck.

 

[Flechas]

Well....I'm pretty worried about being a new hire on the ERJ. I have no autmoation time, no glass time, only flown with a few basic autopilots (no coupled approaches or anything like that), flew with a flight director in a bonanza once.

What can I do to make sure I'm not in that 20% washout figure, beyond the study/memorization assignments my company gave me after the interview 2 days ago? I'm about halfway through memorizing the flows and profiles (up to climbout now). I've got 15 days till class starts.

I quit my instructing job so I could devote at least 8 hrs per day to studying. I had a close friend wash out at this same company and can't think of a worse scenario for me personally, I'm screwed royally if that happens.

What happened to your friend?

 

[Alchemy]

What happened to your friend?

He made it all the way to the end or the training, at the point where they needed to sign him off for the checkride. He had used up all the extra sim/help sessions he could get along the way.

On his last sim flight he told me they gave him a VOR-A approach to mins, single engine with a hydraulic failure. Then they gave him a go around at the MAP. He had problems controlling the sim in manual reversion, and asked for the capt's help. They told him the capt was incapacitated and that he'd have to do it alone.

At that point he felt the sim start to dutch roll, so he kicked in some rudder (not sure which direction). He flipped the plane and crashed, screens went red. They told him that was his last shot so he went in the next day and met with some training people. They told him they were going to have to rescind their offer of employment. They advised him to get some time in faster, larger, more automated airplanes before reapplying if he decided to do that.

He told me that he did great on all the groundschool stuff but the sim just overwhelmed him. He felt like he was behind from day 1 and couldn't catch up., had trouble with all the automation.

He's back to instructing now. To top it off, he had triple my experience, 3000hrs total time and 300 multi.

 

[Flechas]

Thanks for the info.

 

[sf3boy]

Nice thread. As far as the scan goes, you did not need a real great one in the Saab and after two years in the Avro, it has gotten even worse. Plus an autopilot (flight director for the weak dick pilots when it the AP is MEL'd) makes for a ho hum ride. I can imagine the CRJ and ERJ requires even less, as it has even more TV screens.

 

[surplus1]

On his last sim flight he told me they gave him a VOR-A approach to mins, single engine with a hydraulic failure. Then they gave him a go around at the MAP. He had problems controlling the sim in manual reversion, and asked for the capt's help. They told him the capt was incapacitated and that he'd have to do it alone.

Just my opinion but that really sounds like a bit much to be giving, especially to a new hire FO. Multiple failures in unrelated systems should not happen.