Pinnacle Staffing Cost 9E Pilots Fence Positions

[jynxyjericho]

Do you know how you can tell who had the clear victory of this ISL Decision?

The ones who are defending it and telling everyone else to shut up.

Congratulations, Mesaba.

If only the prize was getting our flow back.

I guess the real question is, who are you voting for?

 

[CptMurf]

I'm hearing complaints from ALL the groups... All valid point too... Could that mean anything??

 

[bri5150]

The 'expectation' of PCL FO's was a fast upgrade at a carrier that has a lenghty history of high turnover/quick upgrades. Bloch took that away from them and gave it to MSA FO's, that had no such expectation. Even if the PCL FO's are further up the list they won't be upgrading now any time soon. Thats going to create a lot of resentment in a lot of cockpits going forward.

The staffing per AC at any regional carrier is predominately detemined by the flying their mainline partner gives them. PCL management had already recogonized the need to expand their staffing for Delta's marketing plan long before the JCBA. As another poster noted they started a year ago. The JCBA had nothing to do with it.

An Arbitrator can modify his award. I doubt he would revisit the construction of the list itself but he can certianly, and probably should, revisit the fences.

But the PCL pilots better find an effective committee to do it.

Pinnacle FO's were expecting a fast upgrade? What's the most junior Captain at now? I couldn't imagine it would be all that fast without growth. In fact, if I were hired today (with no merger), I would be a little concerned about the 200's being parked shortly after I was upgrading. I had never heard about fast upgrades at Pinnacle. There were fast upgrades for about two months at Mesaba though. I guess I could be wrong though. And there is going to be resentment in cockpits for 60 or so fenced positions that you will have first crack at anyways because 3/4 of everyone else was stapled below you?

 

[bri5150]

I'm hearing complaints from ALL the groups... All valid point too... Could that mean anything??

You may be right, but the degrees of the complaints are quite different. Losing 6 years of seniority is quite different than bickering over 60 fenced positions that you can still get if your seniority (which was increased relatively for the most part) holds it.

 

[DoinTime]

What were the min days off in your last contract? What are the min days off now? Does the amount of days off now require more pilots to cover flying because people have more days off?

The only way the min day off requirement (11 instead of 10) effects staffing is for reserve coverage. More days off for junior line holders just equals less days off for more senior lineholders so that end of the equation is a wash. So at a typical 15% reserve coverage in the pre merger pinnacle group, the increase in 1 day off for reserves requires 18 more pilots system wide. Not exactly big numbers. This number could be further reduced by quantifying the degraded rules for line holder availability contained in some of the Mesaba provisions that made their way into the JCBA.

 

[mesaba13]

The contract clearly states:

"The company shall staff each position with a sufficent number of Pilots to cover all known flying, vacation, normal sick leave levels scheduled training, Company-related business and known leaves of absence."

Although this does not say numbers, if it is grieved than an arbritrator will decide.

 

[DoinTime]

The contract clearly states:

"The company shall staff each position with a sufficent number of Pilots to cover all known flying, vacation, normal sick leave levels scheduled training, Company-related business and known leaves of absence."

Although this does not say numbers, if it is grieved than an arbritrator will decide.

That was pinnacle contract language.

 

[bri5150]

The only way the min day off requirement (11 instead of 10) effects staffing is for reserve coverage. More days off for junior line holders just equals less days off for more senior lineholders so that end of the equation is a wash. So at a typical 15% reserve coverage in the pre merger pinnacle group, the increase in 1 day off for reserves requires 18 more pilots system wide. Not exactly big numbers. This number could be further reduced by quantifying the degraded rules for line holder availability contained in some of the Mesaba provisions that made their way into the JCBA.

First off, that was just one example of how they need to staff better. Second, what you are seriously trying to say is that having a higher amount of minimum days off doesn't affect staffing levels? I am pretty sure that the company doesn't gift days off to the senior people. They have more days off because of 30 in 7 and 100 in the month and stuff like that. Not because the company wants to give them more time off for fun. And your 18 pilots system wide is pretty much the amount of Mesaba positions that need to be filled for the minimum, so obviously it is significant enough for that argument.

 

[Flyer1015]

Pinnacle FO's were expecting a fast upgrade? What's the most junior Captain at now? I couldn't imagine it would be all that fast without growth. In fact, if I were hired today (with no merger), I would be a little concerned about the 200's being parked shortly after I was upgrading. I had never heard about fast upgrades at Pinnacle. There were fast upgrades for about two months at Mesaba though. I guess I could be wrong though. And there is going to be resentment in cockpits for 60 or so fenced positions that you will have first crack at anyways because 3/4 of everyone else was stapled below you?

Bri, Pinnacle has hired street Captains, that's how bad it was at times. When I started at Pinnacle, I had 2 Captains junior to me, because they had the time to put in for upgrade, and I didn't. These two were subsequently displaced and then later quit. Any FO hired in 2006 got to upgrade last year, 2010, or earlier this year. The most junior FO upgrade on the last vacancy was hired (class date) March 2007. Yeah, even in this economy, a 4-year upgrade, with NO fleet growth. So it is true when the guy above said that now Mesaba pilots have taken that from Pinnacle FOs.

Next, as for bri, xjgear, and all the other guys in group 3 "stapled" under 541 Pinnacle guys and 198 Colgan gus. Look, the bottom line is that next year, once the Saabs are all parked, you will get to bid wherever your seniority allows you to go. Because it's a reduction in flying (Saabs = parked), you can bid to jet Captain positions. Mesaba has yet to meet its fence numbers, and they will soon. But since Pinnacle ONLY has 541 CAs fenced on the 200s, and 95 CAs fenced on the 900s, worse case scenario is you will get these spots, and junior Pinnacle Captains, hired in 2006 and 2007 (who you apparently "fear" or "resent" most), WILL be displaced out of their seats. Pinnacle has 600+ Captains on the CRJ-200 now. We can displace all the way out to just 541 Captains on the 200. Theoretically, because most of these 200 Captains are not in the first 541 spots at Pinnacle, all you Saab Captains could technically bid over to jet CA and displace all junior Pinnacle guys out. Our worse case scenario next year is just 541 Captains on the -200 and just 95 Captains on the 900s. That is FAR, FAR LESS than what we have now!!!!! Forget upgrades, I'm looking at parked Saabs, Mesaba Saab CAs then bidding jet CAs, and our junior 9E Captains getting displaced. Due to the high fences on the Qs, our junior Captains will have no place to go but the right seat of the RJ.

There you have. I've explained why this is a windfall for Pinnacle pilots. These fence protections need to be changed, and hopefully, the 60-day window will make it happen.

 

[DoinTime]

First off, that was just one example of how they need to staff better. Second, what you are seriously trying to say is that having a higher amount of minimum days off doesn't affect staffing levels? I am pretty sure that the company doesn't gift days off to the senior people. They have more days off because of 30 in 7 and 100 in the month and stuff like that. Not because the company wants to give them more time off for fun. And your 18 pilots system wide is pretty much the amount of Mesaba positions that need to be filled for the minimum, so obviously it is significant enough for that argument.

So give us some more examples then. You were the one with the claim that some of the provisions carried in from the former Mesaba contract mandated increased staffing.

 

[bri5150]

So give us some more examples then. You were the one with the claim that some of the provisions carried in from the former Mesaba contract mandated increased staffing.

I don't know what was in your former contract, but they straight up gave us a percentage of staffing increase over your old contract during the roadshows. And it wasn't 18 pilots. Maybe someone that knows both can chime in? Or maybe someone knows the actual number they gave? How about duty day restrictions, amount of hours they can schedule you in a month, how much open time they can have, or staffing to not junior man because of the newly added expense? Like I said, I don't know what those provisions were before, but those would be something to look at at least.

 

[mesaba13]

Its not just the XJ contract elements that will help staffing going forward. Its the joint contract with 200% pay for JM, 3 JM refusals, 3 extention refusals, along with max number or JM events.

This is how the JCBA will mandate propper staffing. And no, I am not giving credit to XJ for negotiating this, it was done together with three groups. In a way I give 9E credit for some of these gains because know what working at an understaffed airline is like and they helped stop that going forward with the JCBA.

What people need to remember is that there will be movement going forward eventually and everybody will soon get bored with all the associated vacancies.

We all need to get over the SLI and work on getting the right people in the union leadership and make this a better carrier for all of us to work for.

 

[EL10]

Wow it is always amazing how intellectual pilots can be so naive to simple math. Min days off does nothing for man power. The days off are just redistributed from senior people especially in PBS. When the company runs the pairing generator it does not know who will get what, it just knows a total amount of credit that can be allocated to a base. Giving a senior pilot one less productive four day trip and giving a junior a more productive three trip is what ends up happing in real simple terms. You got X credit, Y pilots Z days off.

 

[CptMurf]

That was pinnacle contract language.

Why did the union not enforce this then? Especially given the large number of flights cancelled daily due to lack of crews. This affected your overall performance, and has cost you aircraft. If not fixed it would cost us more. This is why the staffing numbers have changed. Hopefully in the end they reflect XJs staffing levels, more than what you accepted to be the norm. People have blamed the company for the staffing levels, and Bloch for not considering the difference, but if the above was you contract language, then you have no one to blame but yourselves. If this was your contract language, you did not enforce a MAJOR provision, that would have benefitted your pilots greatly. Epic Fail.

 

[bri5150]

Bri, Pinnacle has hired street Captains, that's how bad it was at times. When I started at Pinnacle, I had 2 Captains junior to me, because they had the time to put in for upgrade, and I didn't. These two were subsequently displaced and then later quit. Any FO hired in 2006 got to upgrade last year, 2010, or earlier this year. The most junior FO upgrade on the last vacancy was hired (class date) March 2007. Yeah, even in this economy, a 4-year upgrade, with NO fleet growth. So it is true when the guy above said that now Mesaba pilots have taken that from Pinnacle FOs.

Next, as for bri, xjgear, and all the other guys in group 3 "stapled" under 541 Pinnacle guys and 198 Colgan gus. Look, the bottom line is that next year, once the Saabs are all parked, you will get to bid wherever your seniority allows you to go. Because it's a reduction in flying (Saabs = parked), you can bid to jet Captain positions. Mesaba has yet to meet its fence numbers, and they will soon. But since Pinnacle ONLY has 541 CAs fenced on the 200s, and 95 CAs fenced on the 900s, worse case scenario is you will get these spots, and junior Pinnacle Captains, hired in 2006 and 2007 (who you apparently "fear" or "resent" most), WILL be displaced out of their seats. Pinnacle has 600+ Captains on the CRJ-200 now. We can displace all the way out to just 541 Captains on the 200. Theoretically, because most of these 200 Captains are not in the first 541 spots at Pinnacle, all you Saab Captains could technically bid over to jet CA and displace all junior Pinnacle guys out. Our worse case scenario next year is just 541 Captains on the -200 and just 95 Captains on the 900s. That is FAR, FAR LESS than what we have now!!!!! Forget upgrades, I'm looking at parked Saabs, Mesaba Saab CAs then bidding jet CAs, and our junior 9E Captains getting displaced. Due to the high fences on the Qs, our junior Captains will have no place to go but the right seat of the RJ.

There you have. I've explained why this is a windfall for Pinnacle pilots. These fence protections need to be changed, and hopefully, the 60-day window will make it happen.

We will see, but I am pretty sure they won't be displacing anyone from the 200 if they are short handed on that aircraft. Again, the numbers were taken from the "snapshot" of July 1st, 2010. Why should the numbers be taken from after that just for this purpose? If he does that then he needs to count our furloughs as active, look at your 200 fleet as shrinking because of performance...blah blah blah from previous post. Not only that, by the time the guy that's hired on June 30th, 2010 was about to upgrade (within a year), the fence will be down anyways. Plus, what was going to happen when they were finally fully staffed on the jet? The upgrade time would go way up until Delta decides (rephrase because they have already decided: has a rock solid opportunity) to get rid of 200's around the time the fences come down. If this is your only complaint with this SLI, then take it like a man like the rest of us. We lost a hell of a lot more than that.