Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Pinnacle Staffing Cost 9E Pilots Fence Positions

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Do you know how you can tell who had the clear victory of this ISL Decision?

The ones who are defending it and telling everyone else to shut up.

Congratulations, Mesaba.

If only the prize was getting our flow back.

I guess the real question is, who are you voting for?
 
The 'expectation' of PCL FO's was a fast upgrade at a carrier that has a lenghty history of high turnover/quick upgrades. Bloch took that away from them and gave it to MSA FO's, that had no such expectation. Even if the PCL FO's are further up the list they won't be upgrading now any time soon. Thats going to create a lot of resentment in a lot of cockpits going forward.

The staffing per AC at any regional carrier is predominately detemined by the flying their mainline partner gives them. PCL management had already recogonized the need to expand their staffing for Delta's marketing plan long before the JCBA. As another poster noted they started a year ago. The JCBA had nothing to do with it.

An Arbitrator can modify his award. I doubt he would revisit the construction of the list itself but he can certianly, and probably should, revisit the fences.

But the PCL pilots better find an effective committee to do it.


Pinnacle FO's were expecting a fast upgrade? What's the most junior Captain at now? I couldn't imagine it would be all that fast without growth. In fact, if I were hired today (with no merger), I would be a little concerned about the 200's being parked shortly after I was upgrading. I had never heard about fast upgrades at Pinnacle. There were fast upgrades for about two months at Mesaba though. I guess I could be wrong though. And there is going to be resentment in cockpits for 60 or so fenced positions that you will have first crack at anyways because 3/4 of everyone else was stapled below you?
 
I'm hearing complaints from ALL the groups... All valid point too... Could that mean anything??


You may be right, but the degrees of the complaints are quite different. Losing 6 years of seniority is quite different than bickering over 60 fenced positions that you can still get if your seniority (which was increased relatively for the most part) holds it.
 
What were the min days off in your last contract? What are the min days off now? Does the amount of days off now require more pilots to cover flying because people have more days off?

The only way the min day off requirement (11 instead of 10) effects staffing is for reserve coverage. More days off for junior line holders just equals less days off for more senior lineholders so that end of the equation is a wash. So at a typical 15% reserve coverage in the pre merger pinnacle group, the increase in 1 day off for reserves requires 18 more pilots system wide. Not exactly big numbers. This number could be further reduced by quantifying the degraded rules for line holder availability contained in some of the Mesaba provisions that made their way into the JCBA.
 
The contract clearly states:

"The company shall staff each position with a sufficent number of Pilots to cover all known flying, vacation, normal sick leave levels scheduled training, Company-related business and known leaves of absence."

Although this does not say numbers, if it is grieved than an arbritrator will decide.
 
The contract clearly states:

"The company shall staff each position with a sufficent number of Pilots to cover all known flying, vacation, normal sick leave levels scheduled training, Company-related business and known leaves of absence."

Although this does not say numbers, if it is grieved than an arbritrator will decide.

That was pinnacle contract language.
 
The only way the min day off requirement (11 instead of 10) effects staffing is for reserve coverage. More days off for junior line holders just equals less days off for more senior lineholders so that end of the equation is a wash. So at a typical 15% reserve coverage in the pre merger pinnacle group, the increase in 1 day off for reserves requires 18 more pilots system wide. Not exactly big numbers. This number could be further reduced by quantifying the degraded rules for line holder availability contained in some of the Mesaba provisions that made their way into the JCBA.

First off, that was just one example of how they need to staff better. Second, what you are seriously trying to say is that having a higher amount of minimum days off doesn't affect staffing levels? I am pretty sure that the company doesn't gift days off to the senior people. They have more days off because of 30 in 7 and 100 in the month and stuff like that. Not because the company wants to give them more time off for fun. And your 18 pilots system wide is pretty much the amount of Mesaba positions that need to be filled for the minimum, so obviously it is significant enough for that argument.
 
Pinnacle FO's were expecting a fast upgrade? What's the most junior Captain at now? I couldn't imagine it would be all that fast without growth. In fact, if I were hired today (with no merger), I would be a little concerned about the 200's being parked shortly after I was upgrading. I had never heard about fast upgrades at Pinnacle. There were fast upgrades for about two months at Mesaba though. I guess I could be wrong though. And there is going to be resentment in cockpits for 60 or so fenced positions that you will have first crack at anyways because 3/4 of everyone else was stapled below you?

Bri, Pinnacle has hired street Captains, that's how bad it was at times. When I started at Pinnacle, I had 2 Captains junior to me, because they had the time to put in for upgrade, and I didn't. These two were subsequently displaced and then later quit. Any FO hired in 2006 got to upgrade last year, 2010, or earlier this year. The most junior FO upgrade on the last vacancy was hired (class date) March 2007. Yeah, even in this economy, a 4-year upgrade, with NO fleet growth. So it is true when the guy above said that now Mesaba pilots have taken that from Pinnacle FOs.

Next, as for bri, xjgear, and all the other guys in group 3 "stapled" under 541 Pinnacle guys and 198 Colgan gus. Look, the bottom line is that next year, once the Saabs are all parked, you will get to bid wherever your seniority allows you to go. Because it's a reduction in flying (Saabs = parked), you can bid to jet Captain positions. Mesaba has yet to meet its fence numbers, and they will soon. But since Pinnacle ONLY has 541 CAs fenced on the 200s, and 95 CAs fenced on the 900s, worse case scenario is you will get these spots, and junior Pinnacle Captains, hired in 2006 and 2007 (who you apparently "fear" or "resent" most), WILL be displaced out of their seats. Pinnacle has 600+ Captains on the CRJ-200 now. We can displace all the way out to just 541 Captains on the 200. Theoretically, because most of these 200 Captains are not in the first 541 spots at Pinnacle, all you Saab Captains could technically bid over to jet CA and displace all junior Pinnacle guys out. Our worse case scenario next year is just 541 Captains on the -200 and just 95 Captains on the 900s. That is FAR, FAR LESS than what we have now!!!!! Forget upgrades, I'm looking at parked Saabs, Mesaba Saab CAs then bidding jet CAs, and our junior 9E Captains getting displaced. Due to the high fences on the Qs, our junior Captains will have no place to go but the right seat of the RJ.

There you have. I've explained why this is a windfall for Pinnacle pilots. These fence protections need to be changed, and hopefully, the 60-day window will make it happen.
 
First off, that was just one example of how they need to staff better. Second, what you are seriously trying to say is that having a higher amount of minimum days off doesn't affect staffing levels? I am pretty sure that the company doesn't gift days off to the senior people. They have more days off because of 30 in 7 and 100 in the month and stuff like that. Not because the company wants to give them more time off for fun. And your 18 pilots system wide is pretty much the amount of Mesaba positions that need to be filled for the minimum, so obviously it is significant enough for that argument.

So give us some more examples then. You were the one with the claim that some of the provisions carried in from the former Mesaba contract mandated increased staffing.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top