Pinnacle Staffing Cost 9E Pilots Fence Positions

[bri5150]

So give us some more examples then. You were the one with the claim that some of the provisions carried in from the former Mesaba contract mandated increased staffing.

I don't know what was in your former contract, but they straight up gave us a percentage of staffing increase over your old contract during the roadshows. And it wasn't 18 pilots. Maybe someone that knows both can chime in? Or maybe someone knows the actual number they gave? How about duty day restrictions, amount of hours they can schedule you in a month, how much open time they can have, or staffing to not junior man because of the newly added expense? Like I said, I don't know what those provisions were before, but those would be something to look at at least.

 

[mesaba13]

Its not just the XJ contract elements that will help staffing going forward. Its the joint contract with 200% pay for JM, 3 JM refusals, 3 extention refusals, along with max number or JM events.

This is how the JCBA will mandate propper staffing. And no, I am not giving credit to XJ for negotiating this, it was done together with three groups. In a way I give 9E credit for some of these gains because know what working at an understaffed airline is like and they helped stop that going forward with the JCBA.

What people need to remember is that there will be movement going forward eventually and everybody will soon get bored with all the associated vacancies.

We all need to get over the SLI and work on getting the right people in the union leadership and make this a better carrier for all of us to work for.

 

[EL10]

Wow it is always amazing how intellectual pilots can be so naive to simple math. Min days off does nothing for man power. The days off are just redistributed from senior people especially in PBS. When the company runs the pairing generator it does not know who will get what, it just knows a total amount of credit that can be allocated to a base. Giving a senior pilot one less productive four day trip and giving a junior a more productive three trip is what ends up happing in real simple terms. You got X credit, Y pilots Z days off.

 

[CptMurf]

That was pinnacle contract language.

Why did the union not enforce this then? Especially given the large number of flights cancelled daily due to lack of crews. This affected your overall performance, and has cost you aircraft. If not fixed it would cost us more. This is why the staffing numbers have changed. Hopefully in the end they reflect XJs staffing levels, more than what you accepted to be the norm. People have blamed the company for the staffing levels, and Bloch for not considering the difference, but if the above was you contract language, then you have no one to blame but yourselves. If this was your contract language, you did not enforce a MAJOR provision, that would have benefitted your pilots greatly. Epic Fail.

 

[bri5150]

Bri, Pinnacle has hired street Captains, that's how bad it was at times. When I started at Pinnacle, I had 2 Captains junior to me, because they had the time to put in for upgrade, and I didn't. These two were subsequently displaced and then later quit. Any FO hired in 2006 got to upgrade last year, 2010, or earlier this year. The most junior FO upgrade on the last vacancy was hired (class date) March 2007. Yeah, even in this economy, a 4-year upgrade, with NO fleet growth. So it is true when the guy above said that now Mesaba pilots have taken that from Pinnacle FOs.

Next, as for bri, xjgear, and all the other guys in group 3 "stapled" under 541 Pinnacle guys and 198 Colgan gus. Look, the bottom line is that next year, once the Saabs are all parked, you will get to bid wherever your seniority allows you to go. Because it's a reduction in flying (Saabs = parked), you can bid to jet Captain positions. Mesaba has yet to meet its fence numbers, and they will soon. But since Pinnacle ONLY has 541 CAs fenced on the 200s, and 95 CAs fenced on the 900s, worse case scenario is you will get these spots, and junior Pinnacle Captains, hired in 2006 and 2007 (who you apparently "fear" or "resent" most), WILL be displaced out of their seats. Pinnacle has 600+ Captains on the CRJ-200 now. We can displace all the way out to just 541 Captains on the 200. Theoretically, because most of these 200 Captains are not in the first 541 spots at Pinnacle, all you Saab Captains could technically bid over to jet CA and displace all junior Pinnacle guys out. Our worse case scenario next year is just 541 Captains on the -200 and just 95 Captains on the 900s. That is FAR, FAR LESS than what we have now!!!!! Forget upgrades, I'm looking at parked Saabs, Mesaba Saab CAs then bidding jet CAs, and our junior 9E Captains getting displaced. Due to the high fences on the Qs, our junior Captains will have no place to go but the right seat of the RJ.

There you have. I've explained why this is a windfall for Pinnacle pilots. These fence protections need to be changed, and hopefully, the 60-day window will make it happen.

We will see, but I am pretty sure they won't be displacing anyone from the 200 if they are short handed on that aircraft. Again, the numbers were taken from the "snapshot" of July 1st, 2010. Why should the numbers be taken from after that just for this purpose? If he does that then he needs to count our furloughs as active, look at your 200 fleet as shrinking because of performance...blah blah blah from previous post. Not only that, by the time the guy that's hired on June 30th, 2010 was about to upgrade (within a year), the fence will be down anyways. Plus, what was going to happen when they were finally fully staffed on the jet? The upgrade time would go way up until Delta decides (rephrase because they have already decided: has a rock solid opportunity) to get rid of 200's around the time the fences come down. If this is your only complaint with this SLI, then take it like a man like the rest of us. We lost a hell of a lot more than that.

 

[bri5150]

I just got done talking to an XJ rep about something else, but I mentioned the SLI and this will be my last post on this subject. It seems as though many at Mesaba got screwed on the front side that was easy to see, and many at Pinnacle got screwed on the back side, or the side that wasn't so easy to see right away. I am honestly ready to move on. I can't guarantee I won't chime in on this stuff from time to time. I stand by my previous posts, and I still don't think the the Pinnacle pain will be as much as the Mesaba pain, but that is neither here nor there. I completely disagree with changing the number on the fences because that would get rid of the Pinnacle pain which would be even more unfair. Good luck to us all, and I look forward to flying with you.

 

[Flyer1015]

We will see, but I am pretty sure they won't be displacing anyone from the 200 if they are short handed on that aircraft.

Once your 27 Saabs are parked by next year, you can bet we will have an "overstaffing" of Captains system wide. Once you are forced off the Saab as Captain, you will bid a jet Captain spot. You will get it. If the company cannot absorb all 162 Saab Captains (27 planes x 6 captains/plane), you folks will be able to hold what your seniority allows you. This includes RJ Captain positions. The bottom-most pilots, Pinnacle, since Colgan has no jets, will be displaced out and forced into the right seat of the jet. We are short handed, but we WILL have a surplus of pilots once all 27 Saabs from Mesaba are gone.

Again, the numbers were taken from the "snapshot" of July 1st, 2010. Why should the numbers be taken from after that just for this purpose? If he does that then he needs to count our furloughs as active, look at your 200 fleet as shrinking because of performance...blah blah blah from previous post.

I have no problem with that. Go ahead, count your furloughs as active. The MOU gives them longevity credit anyway. The -200 wasn't a shrinking fleet in the same sense as the Saabs. The Saabs have no written Airline Services Agreement and are due to be parked by 2012. All of them. Pinnacle lost 3 RJs, 2 of which were gained due to others getting paint jobs at GLH.

Not only that, by the time the guy that's hired on June 30th, 2010 was about to upgrade (within a year), the fence will be down anyways.

With no fleet growth, and a fleet shrinking in the future (all Saabs gone), I don't think any 2010 FO will be upgrading until at least 5-6 years. We already have 4+ year FOs who are still FOs. We are becoming the next Eagle pretty quick. What saved them was flowthroughs and CRJ-700 jet orders. We have only a handful of flowthroughs, and no aircraft orders. Just Saabs heading to the desert.

Plus, what was going to happen when they were finally fully staffed on the jet? The upgrade time would go way up until Delta decides (rephrase because they have already decided: has a rock solid opportunity) to get rid of 200's around the time the fences come down. If this is your only complaint with this SLI, then take it like a man like the rest of us. We lost a hell of a lot more than that.

I don't think Mesaba lost as much as you make it sound like. The first 50% Colgan gained the most, top XJ pilots gained the most. Top 9E pilots got screwed, and the rest is in-the-middle.

 

[Flyer1015]

And speaking of flowthroughs, aren't those like numbers 1xx to 2xx at Mesaba? If they are that senior, most likely 10-15 years at Mesaba, mid-lifers, why would they leave all that to start bottom reserve at a legacy, even if it is Delta? That's kinda crazy, IMO. Delta only hired about 300 last year and none this year. How do you XJ folks even know if the flowthroughs will elect to go through? Now, is it true that if a XJ guy denies to flow, the next guy doesn't get the offer? Why? How could the XJ union not allow that, or not negotiate for that? If #190 at XJ decides he doesn't want to go to Delta anymore, then the choice should go to #191, and so on, until the full number of flowthroughs are up (roughly 100 or so). What gives?

 

[CptMurf]

And speaking of flowthroughs, aren't those like numbers 1xx to 2xx at Mesaba? If they are that senior, most likely 10-15 years at Mesaba, mid-lifers, why would they leave all that to start bottom reserve at a legacy, even if it is Delta? That's kinda crazy, IMO. Delta only hired about 300 last year and none this year. How do you XJ folks even know if the flowthroughs will elect to go through? Now, is it true that if a XJ guy denies to flow, the next guy doesn't get the offer? Why? How could the XJ union not allow that, or not negotiate for that? If #190 at XJ decides he doesn't want to go to Delta anymore, then the choice should go to #191, and so on, until the full number of flowthroughs are up (roughly 100 or so). What gives?

They did fight for it. Fought hard. DAL didn't want to give us anything. They negotiated the best they could, 1 years worth. 108. If they elect not to go, the spot is lost. If you want to point a finger, point it at the DAL MEC. They were the ones fighting against the flowthrough.

 

[Flyer1015]

Of the 108, how many of them would realistically go? How were 108 selected? Is it straight seniority order? Preference for those who expressed interest in going? Just trying to gauge how many will really leave, because I would be surprised if even half leave.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Of the 108, how many of them would realistically go? How were 108 selected? Is it straight seniority order? Preference for those who expressed interest in going? Just trying to gauge how many will really leave, because I would be surprised if even half leave.

The majority of eligible flows are yes. A bunch listed as no previous to the merger are now yes. It's all by seniority, no special preference. If they decide no that flow-thru spot is lost forever. At the union meeting they listed it. My memory may be off but it was 45 900 CA, 25 200 CA 14 SAAB CA's that are currently listed as yes. The trickle down effect of these flows are immense. For career expectations this should have been included in the parameters. Bloch decided otherwise. That is part of the reason why I have no sympathy for those who complain about the fences. We had guaranteed career improvement and it wasn't included.

 

[CptMurf]

Of the 108, how many of them would realistically go? How were 108 selected? Is it straight seniority order? Preference for those who expressed interest in going? Just trying to gauge how many will really leave, because I would be surprised if even half leave.

Some of the 108 have already left. 55, if I counted correctly, are currently electing to flow. They are able to change their bids up until an award that would affect them, they cannot bypass or delay. I just counted the previously bid "yes"s.

 

[CptMurf]

Some of the 108 have already left. 55, if I counted correctly, are currently electing to flow. They are able to change their bids up until an award that would affect them, they cannot bypass or delay. I just counted the previously bid "yes"s.

There are 4 "NO"s. And only 6 Saab CAs. There are some listed as N/A, I don't know what this means... Maybe no 4 year degree, which is required.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Just looked at the list 4 are listed as no, 11 are listed as "NA" which is the equivalent of NO if they don't change to yes. The most senior eligible was hire Feb 97 and junior Nov 98.

 

[gojo]

Once your 27 Saabs are parked by next year, you can bet we will have an "overstaffing" of Captains system wide. Once you are forced off the Saab as Captain, you will bid a jet Captain spot. You will get it. If the company cannot absorb all 162 Saab Captains (27 planes x 6 captains/plane), you folks will be able to hold what your seniority allows you. This includes RJ Captain positions. The bottom-most pilots, Pinnacle, since Colgan has no jets, will be displaced out and forced into the right seat of the jet. We are short handed, but we WILL have a surplus of pilots once all 27 Saabs from Mesaba are gone.


I have no problem with that. Go ahead, count your furloughs as active. The MOU gives them longevity credit anyway. The -200 wasn't a shrinking fleet in the same sense as the Saabs. The Saabs have no written Airline Services Agreement and are due to be parked by 2012. All of them. Pinnacle lost 3 RJs, 2 of which were gained due to others getting paint jobs at GLH.



With no fleet growth, and a fleet shrinking in the future (all Saabs gone), I don't think any 2010 FO will be upgrading until at least 5-6 years. We already have 4+ year FOs who are still FOs. We are becoming the next Eagle pretty quick. What saved them was flowthroughs and CRJ-700 jet orders. We have only a handful of flowthroughs, and no aircraft orders. Just Saabs heading to the desert.



I don't think Mesaba lost as much as you make it sound like. The first 50% Colgan gained the most, top XJ pilots gained the most. Top 9E pilots got screwed, and the rest is in-the-middle.

A lot of those saabs have already left. I think we are only flying 14 for delta now

 

[jynxyjericho]

How could the XJ union not allow that, or not negotiate for that? What gives?

We had no negotiating capital on that one like the Compass guys did.

That flow, post buyout, is all a sympathy flow. Lee Moak and the Delta ALPA group got the 108 (those who could expect to flow in one year time) for us and it was all charity. I'm happy we got anything.

After seeing the fences I'm wondering how you still think the XJ guys don't fight for us very effectively every day? Seems strange to me is all.

A lot of those saabs have already left. I think we are only flying 14 for delta now

Full credit though.

 

[mesaba13]

How many flow is anyones guess, but I know for a fact that many switched from "no" to "yes" when the sale to 9E occurred. Now that those senior guys did pretty well in the SLI you may see several switch back to "no". I would say around 45-50 will leave.

 

[bri5150]

How many flow is anyones guess, but I know for a fact that many switched from "no" to "yes" when the sale to 9E occurred. Now that those senior guys did pretty well in the SLI you may see several switch back to "no". I would say around 45-50 will leave.

Ugh, you think only that many? Even if they are 45, they will still have 20 years at Delta to make up money. Of course we are all in different places, but as I have stated before. I don't see how 9E can come up with 3k pilot positions in five years. I guess the top however many won't be affected by 200's leaving, but it still has the chance of going through shamruptcy part 2 and another merger. A year ago or so I wouldn't have said this, but right now I can't understand why people would intentionally stay at a regional for a career.

 

[mesaba13]

Some have spouses with great careers and other are in their fifties so we will see.

 

[Flyer1015]

but right now I can't understand why people would intentionally stay at a regional for a career.

I don't understand either. What made Mesaba so great to make people want to stay there? I mean, come on, it's a crappy regional like any other. Started with turboprops, 50s 60s 70s 80s, tons of guys hired in the 80s and 90s. I think it was the Avro that did them in. They started thinking "ah sweeet! I'm flyin the domestic 4-holer! I could totally retire on this regional 747!" And with their introduction in 1995, people were ecstatic to bid to those. Fast forward 10 y ears, 9/11, almost going to strike, a contract, Avros gone, a shamruptcy, Big Sky whipsaw, and done to just 49 Saabs, I think then pilots realized, "Crap! My domestic 747 is gone! What will I do now?" But by now, they were in too deep. Many with 10-15+ years service, and have no interest in starting over at the bottom on reserve.