Pinnacle Staffing Cost 9E Pilots Fence Positions

[bri5150]

I just got done talking to an XJ rep about something else, but I mentioned the SLI and this will be my last post on this subject. It seems as though many at Mesaba got screwed on the front side that was easy to see, and many at Pinnacle got screwed on the back side, or the side that wasn't so easy to see right away. I am honestly ready to move on. I can't guarantee I won't chime in on this stuff from time to time. I stand by my previous posts, and I still don't think the the Pinnacle pain will be as much as the Mesaba pain, but that is neither here nor there. I completely disagree with changing the number on the fences because that would get rid of the Pinnacle pain which would be even more unfair. Good luck to us all, and I look forward to flying with you.

 

[Flyer1015]

We will see, but I am pretty sure they won't be displacing anyone from the 200 if they are short handed on that aircraft.

Once your 27 Saabs are parked by next year, you can bet we will have an "overstaffing" of Captains system wide. Once you are forced off the Saab as Captain, you will bid a jet Captain spot. You will get it. If the company cannot absorb all 162 Saab Captains (27 planes x 6 captains/plane), you folks will be able to hold what your seniority allows you. This includes RJ Captain positions. The bottom-most pilots, Pinnacle, since Colgan has no jets, will be displaced out and forced into the right seat of the jet. We are short handed, but we WILL have a surplus of pilots once all 27 Saabs from Mesaba are gone.

Again, the numbers were taken from the "snapshot" of July 1st, 2010. Why should the numbers be taken from after that just for this purpose? If he does that then he needs to count our furloughs as active, look at your 200 fleet as shrinking because of performance...blah blah blah from previous post.

I have no problem with that. Go ahead, count your furloughs as active. The MOU gives them longevity credit anyway. The -200 wasn't a shrinking fleet in the same sense as the Saabs. The Saabs have no written Airline Services Agreement and are due to be parked by 2012. All of them. Pinnacle lost 3 RJs, 2 of which were gained due to others getting paint jobs at GLH.

Not only that, by the time the guy that's hired on June 30th, 2010 was about to upgrade (within a year), the fence will be down anyways.

With no fleet growth, and a fleet shrinking in the future (all Saabs gone), I don't think any 2010 FO will be upgrading until at least 5-6 years. We already have 4+ year FOs who are still FOs. We are becoming the next Eagle pretty quick. What saved them was flowthroughs and CRJ-700 jet orders. We have only a handful of flowthroughs, and no aircraft orders. Just Saabs heading to the desert.

Plus, what was going to happen when they were finally fully staffed on the jet? The upgrade time would go way up until Delta decides (rephrase because they have already decided: has a rock solid opportunity) to get rid of 200's around the time the fences come down. If this is your only complaint with this SLI, then take it like a man like the rest of us. We lost a hell of a lot more than that.

I don't think Mesaba lost as much as you make it sound like. The first 50% Colgan gained the most, top XJ pilots gained the most. Top 9E pilots got screwed, and the rest is in-the-middle.

 

[Flyer1015]

And speaking of flowthroughs, aren't those like numbers 1xx to 2xx at Mesaba? If they are that senior, most likely 10-15 years at Mesaba, mid-lifers, why would they leave all that to start bottom reserve at a legacy, even if it is Delta? That's kinda crazy, IMO. Delta only hired about 300 last year and none this year. How do you XJ folks even know if the flowthroughs will elect to go through? Now, is it true that if a XJ guy denies to flow, the next guy doesn't get the offer? Why? How could the XJ union not allow that, or not negotiate for that? If #190 at XJ decides he doesn't want to go to Delta anymore, then the choice should go to #191, and so on, until the full number of flowthroughs are up (roughly 100 or so). What gives?

 

[CptMurf]

And speaking of flowthroughs, aren't those like numbers 1xx to 2xx at Mesaba? If they are that senior, most likely 10-15 years at Mesaba, mid-lifers, why would they leave all that to start bottom reserve at a legacy, even if it is Delta? That's kinda crazy, IMO. Delta only hired about 300 last year and none this year. How do you XJ folks even know if the flowthroughs will elect to go through? Now, is it true that if a XJ guy denies to flow, the next guy doesn't get the offer? Why? How could the XJ union not allow that, or not negotiate for that? If #190 at XJ decides he doesn't want to go to Delta anymore, then the choice should go to #191, and so on, until the full number of flowthroughs are up (roughly 100 or so). What gives?

They did fight for it. Fought hard. DAL didn't want to give us anything. They negotiated the best they could, 1 years worth. 108. If they elect not to go, the spot is lost. If you want to point a finger, point it at the DAL MEC. They were the ones fighting against the flowthrough.

 

[Flyer1015]

Of the 108, how many of them would realistically go? How were 108 selected? Is it straight seniority order? Preference for those who expressed interest in going? Just trying to gauge how many will really leave, because I would be surprised if even half leave.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Of the 108, how many of them would realistically go? How were 108 selected? Is it straight seniority order? Preference for those who expressed interest in going? Just trying to gauge how many will really leave, because I would be surprised if even half leave.

The majority of eligible flows are yes. A bunch listed as no previous to the merger are now yes. It's all by seniority, no special preference. If they decide no that flow-thru spot is lost forever. At the union meeting they listed it. My memory may be off but it was 45 900 CA, 25 200 CA 14 SAAB CA's that are currently listed as yes. The trickle down effect of these flows are immense. For career expectations this should have been included in the parameters. Bloch decided otherwise. That is part of the reason why I have no sympathy for those who complain about the fences. We had guaranteed career improvement and it wasn't included.

 

[CptMurf]

Of the 108, how many of them would realistically go? How were 108 selected? Is it straight seniority order? Preference for those who expressed interest in going? Just trying to gauge how many will really leave, because I would be surprised if even half leave.

Some of the 108 have already left. 55, if I counted correctly, are currently electing to flow. They are able to change their bids up until an award that would affect them, they cannot bypass or delay. I just counted the previously bid "yes"s.

 

[CptMurf]

Some of the 108 have already left. 55, if I counted correctly, are currently electing to flow. They are able to change their bids up until an award that would affect them, they cannot bypass or delay. I just counted the previously bid "yes"s.

There are 4 "NO"s. And only 6 Saab CAs. There are some listed as N/A, I don't know what this means... Maybe no 4 year degree, which is required.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Just looked at the list 4 are listed as no, 11 are listed as "NA" which is the equivalent of NO if they don't change to yes. The most senior eligible was hire Feb 97 and junior Nov 98.

 

[gojo]

Once your 27 Saabs are parked by next year, you can bet we will have an "overstaffing" of Captains system wide. Once you are forced off the Saab as Captain, you will bid a jet Captain spot. You will get it. If the company cannot absorb all 162 Saab Captains (27 planes x 6 captains/plane), you folks will be able to hold what your seniority allows you. This includes RJ Captain positions. The bottom-most pilots, Pinnacle, since Colgan has no jets, will be displaced out and forced into the right seat of the jet. We are short handed, but we WILL have a surplus of pilots once all 27 Saabs from Mesaba are gone.


I have no problem with that. Go ahead, count your furloughs as active. The MOU gives them longevity credit anyway. The -200 wasn't a shrinking fleet in the same sense as the Saabs. The Saabs have no written Airline Services Agreement and are due to be parked by 2012. All of them. Pinnacle lost 3 RJs, 2 of which were gained due to others getting paint jobs at GLH.



With no fleet growth, and a fleet shrinking in the future (all Saabs gone), I don't think any 2010 FO will be upgrading until at least 5-6 years. We already have 4+ year FOs who are still FOs. We are becoming the next Eagle pretty quick. What saved them was flowthroughs and CRJ-700 jet orders. We have only a handful of flowthroughs, and no aircraft orders. Just Saabs heading to the desert.



I don't think Mesaba lost as much as you make it sound like. The first 50% Colgan gained the most, top XJ pilots gained the most. Top 9E pilots got screwed, and the rest is in-the-middle.

A lot of those saabs have already left. I think we are only flying 14 for delta now

 

[jynxyjericho]

How could the XJ union not allow that, or not negotiate for that? What gives?

We had no negotiating capital on that one like the Compass guys did.

That flow, post buyout, is all a sympathy flow. Lee Moak and the Delta ALPA group got the 108 (those who could expect to flow in one year time) for us and it was all charity. I'm happy we got anything.

After seeing the fences I'm wondering how you still think the XJ guys don't fight for us very effectively every day? Seems strange to me is all.

A lot of those saabs have already left. I think we are only flying 14 for delta now

Full credit though.

 

[mesaba13]

How many flow is anyones guess, but I know for a fact that many switched from "no" to "yes" when the sale to 9E occurred. Now that those senior guys did pretty well in the SLI you may see several switch back to "no". I would say around 45-50 will leave.

 

[bri5150]

How many flow is anyones guess, but I know for a fact that many switched from "no" to "yes" when the sale to 9E occurred. Now that those senior guys did pretty well in the SLI you may see several switch back to "no". I would say around 45-50 will leave.

Ugh, you think only that many? Even if they are 45, they will still have 20 years at Delta to make up money. Of course we are all in different places, but as I have stated before. I don't see how 9E can come up with 3k pilot positions in five years. I guess the top however many won't be affected by 200's leaving, but it still has the chance of going through shamruptcy part 2 and another merger. A year ago or so I wouldn't have said this, but right now I can't understand why people would intentionally stay at a regional for a career.

 

[mesaba13]

Some have spouses with great careers and other are in their fifties so we will see.

 

[Flyer1015]

but right now I can't understand why people would intentionally stay at a regional for a career.

I don't understand either. What made Mesaba so great to make people want to stay there? I mean, come on, it's a crappy regional like any other. Started with turboprops, 50s 60s 70s 80s, tons of guys hired in the 80s and 90s. I think it was the Avro that did them in. They started thinking "ah sweeet! I'm flyin the domestic 4-holer! I could totally retire on this regional 747!" And with their introduction in 1995, people were ecstatic to bid to those. Fast forward 10 y ears, 9/11, almost going to strike, a contract, Avros gone, a shamruptcy, Big Sky whipsaw, and done to just 49 Saabs, I think then pilots realized, "Crap! My domestic 747 is gone! What will I do now?" But by now, they were in too deep. Many with 10-15+ years service, and have no interest in starting over at the bottom on reserve.