Pinnacle pilots can do better

[JoeMerchant]

Joey, the only one around here who's part of the problem is you.

Specifically, how am I to blame? Am I to blame for the PCL TA? Am I to blame for the failure of scope? Am I to blame for the outsourcing of flying? Am I to blame for you paying to sit in the right seat as an airline pilot? Am I to blame for you not knowing what your own CNC agreed to?

Am I the ONLY one around here who is part of the problem....If I was gone, would all these problems go away?

 

[JoeMerchant]

it isn't for lack of trying! I guess I just don't know the right people. I also was only interested in NON-ALPA carriers.

Very smart.

Ah, that was it.. the AOL boards I am familiar with. Man, its been a long way and time.

I wonder if PCL_128 remembers the AOL boards?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why do all the loudest ALPA cheerleaders (PCL_128) always come from the airlines with the worst contracts?

Makes them feel better about themselves....They can pontificate to us mere mortals about how they are trying to improve the industry for us...

 

[PCL_128]

Specifically, how am I to blame?

You spend all of your time attacking and none of your time looking for solutions.

Am I to blame for the PCL TA?

No, the PCL MEC is to blame for that. I share some of that blame for my time there.

Am I to blame for the failure of scope? Am I to blame for the outsourcing of flying?

Partly, yes. You are one half of the equation. The other half is the large group of mainline pilots that look down at regional pilots and refuse to fight for integration.

Am I to blame for you paying to sit in the right seat as an airline pilot?

No, but you are to blame for yourself paying to sit in the right seat as an airline pilot.

Am I to blame for you not knowing what your own CNC agreed to?

Of course not. But it does serve as a great example for future ALPA leaders as to how important it is for an MEC to maintain oversight of their own committees. You can bet that I'll never make that same mistake again. Your hero Ronnie had the right idea: "Trust but verify."

Am I the ONLY one around here who is part of the problem....If I was gone, would all these problems go away?

Of course not. You're only part of the problem, just as all of us are. The unfortunate difference with you is that you don't even endeavor to be part of the solution.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

PCL128,

You are sadly mistaken if you think Joe is part of the problem!

Take a look in the mirror!

701EV

Of course he is.... there is a difference between dissension and obstruction. Joey is an obstructionist... he is the McDonalds woman who sued because she spilled hot coffee on her crotch...

He is nothing more or less....

Joey has done nothing to promote the profession. He is a tool. His self esteem is so low, that he has to get attention from others by being a legal terrorist and suing others from what he couldn't obtain on his own....

At least the GIA guys as bad as that program is... paid for a service... Joey wanted a downright land grab... something for nothing because... he is a welfare case.... a loser who will drag other people down instead of trying to build himself up....

Name one thing Joey has done, I'll name three things that he does that trumps it...

Ignore the cancer that kills this profession...

 

[dondk]

Very smart.

Being an ALPA rep then committee VC for years, I've seen the good and the bad. Personally got bent over by my MEC who blamed it on ALPA national. (you already know I wasn't born yesterday!)

For me, I am not against ALPA, it has its place, and we all know some people need ALPA. I do agree with PCL, they offer a service that cannot be found anywhere else.

I wonder if PCL_128 remembers the AOL boards?

I have always believed in a statement from Mark Twain. [FONT=&quot]Age[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.[/FONT]

 

[JoeMerchant]

You spend all of your time attacking and none of your time looking for solutions.

I spent time 10 years ago looking for solutions...ALPA and the mainline pilots didn't think it was a problem and didn't want a solution...I only attack things I don't agree with....Just so happens that ALPA and I don't agree on much....

No, the PCL MEC is to blame for that. I share some of that blame for my time there.

ALPA's policy of keeping the dirty laundry internal is also partly to blame...This situation happens at most MEC's....ALPA policy however is to disagree in private and agree in public...The average line pilot has no idea what goes on behind closed doors...I've seen...It ain't pretty...

Partly, yes. You are one half of the equation. The other half is the large group of mainline pilots that look down at regional pilots and refuse to fight for integration.

How am I to blame for the failures of scope and the outsourcing of flying?

Of course not. You're only part of the problem, just as all of us are. The unfortunate difference with you is that you don't even endeavor to be part of the solution.

That's not what you said above...You said the only here who is part of the problem is me...I endeavored to be part of the solution back when I was an ALPA cheerleader like you...Been there done that.

By the way, what is the "solution" that you want me to support....Is it the right solution for everyone?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Being an ALPA rep then committee VC for years, I've seen the good and the bad. Personally got bent over by my MEC who blamed it on ALPA national. (you already know I wasn't born yesterday!)

I've seen the same "bad"....and some "good"...I've seen more bad than good and have seen ALPA reps. go after me personally for simply disagreeing in public...That is a cardinal sin in this organization.

For me, I am not against ALPA, it has its place, and we all know some people need ALPA. I do agree with PCL, they offer a service that cannot be found anywhere else.

What "service" do they offer that can't be found anywhere else?

 

[PCL_128]

I spent time 10 years ago looking for solutions...

In other words, you're a quitter. Glad we cleared that up.

ALPA's policy of keeping the dirty laundry internal is also partly to blame...This situation happens at most MEC's....ALPA policy however is to disagree in private and agree in public...The average line pilot has no idea what goes on behind closed doors...I've seen...It ain't pretty...

Airing dirty laundry in public is not solution to any problem. Things should be handled internally. But they need to be handled.

How am I to blame for the failures of scope and the outsourcing of flying?

The seniority grab that you attempted has killed virtually any hope of bringing both parties together. The RJDC did more to destroy mainline/regional relations than anything else. And you were one of its founding "officers."

By the way, what is the "solution" that you want me to support....Is it the right solution for everyone?

The solution is being involved and working towards resolving problems rather than just attacking at every opportunity.

 

[dondk]

What "service" do they offer that can't be found anywhere else?

they are a one stop shop, historical, industry specific details that are readily available. I agree, you can find everything, just not in one place.

When they hold the contracts and all the dealings to get those contracts, they hold a card that does have value. At what price????

Oh.. I agree 100%, there are cardinal sin's. You are spot on with that.

 

[altimaklr]

Why don't you guys take the cat-fight private? No one wants to listen to it.

 

[buscap]

Why don't you guys take the cat-fight private? No one wants to listen to it.

You getting audio on this thing?

Where's the link or button for that?

 

[redflyer65]

I agree.

Let's turn this back to the PCL TA. Any other thoughts..

 

[buscap]

I agree.

Let's turn this back to the PCL TA. Any other thoughts..

maybe........Mesa sucks????

 

[Flyer1015]

The impact of over 60 guys coming back will be worse than you think. I have a buddy at UPS who has really been bent over by that one.

Dude, there is a serious difference between a UPS guy returning to UPS after age 60 and working until 65, than a Pinnacle guy returing. Why the eff would anyone come back to Pinnacle?!?!

If coming back to Pinnacle after retirement is your best and only career choice, you might as well kill yourself.

Don't worry, unlike UPS, Pinnacle will not have any age 60+ pilots returning.

 

[Flyer1015]

And don't get me wrong, it's a sh*tty TA, but it will pass. Just watch.

 

[20sx]

It's quite possible some over 60 will return, but I don't think it would be a meaningful amount. Well, it might matter to Joe

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Joe, you are spot on. Be thankful there are only but just a few that need to be woken up!

As far as this Pinnacle TA, all I can say is Wow! Are you serious?

 

[b19]

Think you're having a bad day, watch their video, working at Amerijet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZFMLh_tZtM

 

[JoeMerchant]

In other words, you're a quitter. Glad we cleared that up.

Not a quiter...Just persuing different avenues. The only thing I quit was supporting ALPA...I still support ASA/Skywest and improving things here...I quit believing that this cult like ALPA will protect us....

Airing dirty laundry in public is not solution to any problem. Things should be handled internally. But they need to be handled.

So you don't support transperancy? I've been through ALPA leadership training as have you....You are parroting the ALPA position...That creates situations like what you now have at PCL...The pilots had no idea that things were so dysfunctional behind the scenes and that you were partially to blame for that dysfunction.

The only people that don't want the dirty laundry aired are those who have something to hide, and those who are more concerned about protecting the mighty ALPA institution...

The seniority grab that you attempted has killed virtually any hope of bringing both parties together. The RJDC did more to destroy mainline/regional relations than anything else. And you were one of its founding "officers."

What "seniority grab" are you referring to? Are you referring to the PID that both BA and DN supported? I thought you respected them? How did the RJDC destroy mainline/regional relations?

The solution is being involved and working towards resolving problems rather than just attacking at every opportunity.

That isn't a specific solution....Tell me what you envision as your perfect solution and how does it directly affect the senior "lifers" at ASA/CMR/Skywest? Specifics please....not more nebulous ALPA feel good talk......

 

[buscap]

Not a quiter...


So you don't support transperancy? I've been through ALPA leadership training as have you....You are parroting the ALPA position...That creates situations like what you now have at PCL...The pilots had no idea that things were so dysfunctional behind the scenes and that you were partially to blame for that dysfunction.

The only people that don't want the dirty laundry aired are those who have something to hide, and those who are more concerned about protecting the mighty ALPA institution...

......

Joe,

None of my GD business, but I've seen this tree barked up before and I can understand where the dogs are headed. It is a legitimate critique against anyone who can't "play."

Any organization, wether it be legislative or executive, must have a certain degree of 'privelage.' It's that simple, in particular when one of the functions of that organization is to conduct negotiations.

Negotiation by definition is two parties telling lies to one another. Party A can't effectively lie to party B, if party B already knows what the facts are behind party A's negotiation position, because the sub-parties of A have aired out their own dirty laundry. It really is that simple.

Of course the result of this is corruption and deception within party A's organization due to internal politics. It really is that simple.

When you hire someone to negotiate on your behalf, you are paying them to lie, cheat and steal on your behalf. They are no good to you if they are not capable of this. But then you should not be really suprised when you find out that they are capable of telling you lies, cheating you, and stealing from you. It really is that simple.

If someone is not capable of working within the 'united front' (even though false) parameters required in order to allow negotiators to be the deceptive bustards we pay them to be, then that person should not be part of that organization.

In other words...dots for pause....if you can't properly slit throats....get off the pirate ship...because you are no good to us!!!

And don't take it personally. Not everybody is good at cutting throats the way party A wants it done.

 

[PCL_128]

Not a quiter

Beg to differ.

So you don't support transperancy? I've been through ALPA leadership training as have you....You are parroting the ALPA position...

That's because the ALPA position is correct. What you advocate would create absolute chaos and give management exactly what they want.

What "seniority grab" are you referring to? Are you referring to the PID that both BA and DN supported? I thought you respected them? How did the RJDC destroy mainline/regional relations?

That isn't a specific solution....Tell me what you envision as your perfect solution and how does it directly affect the senior "lifers" at ASA/CMR/Skywest? Specifics please....not more nebulous ALPA feel good talk......

This thread isn't the place for that lengthy debate.