Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan get TA

[DoinTime]

You don't understand because you have no idea what we have been through with this Q program. three years of utter hell. This rate is a slap in the face.

I understand why it has to be this way, I understand that it is going to pass with this rate. Don't expect me to be happy about it. It's time for the company to recognize the initial cadre of pilots that laid the foundation for the future of this company. That foundation was laid with investigations, violations, long days and many many hard lessons that the future Q pilots will never have to learn the hard way like we did. I just want a rate right off of the bat that recognizes this.

I have close to 2500 hours in this plane. I have seen the evolution of how it is operated. It has evolved from an operation that seemed destined to fail, to one that looks like it will have a bright future ahead of it. This successful future is due in large part to pilots like me and my fellow brethren at CJC with CJC ALPA serving as a conduit to the company. If you think otherwise, you are not aware of the history of this airplane with this company. The other idiot and I just want recognition for our contribution, up front. The future success of the aircraft type is tied to us, shouldn't a share of future profits also be tied to us, now?

I'm sure at heart, there is not a Q pilot at CJC that doesn't feel this way. Whether they express it outwardly or not. This is an emotional argument, but after what we have been through, it's pretty tough to not let emotions enter into the equation.

So do you think that other pilots under the Pinnacle Corp umbrella should have had to take a pay cut to fund your 25+% pay rate increase (plus all the other goodies in this TA) that you felt entitled to?

 

[Thurman Merman]

You don't understand because you have no idea what we have been through with this Q program. three years of utter hell. This rate is a slap in the face.

I understand why it has to be this way, I understand that it is going to pass with this rate. Don't expect me to be happy about it. It's time for the company to recognize the initial cadre of pilots that laid the foundation for the future of this company. That foundation was laid with investigations, violations, long days and many many hard lessons that the future Q pilots will never have to learn the hard way like we did. I just want a rate right off of the bat that recognizes this.

I have close to 2500 hours in this plane. I have seen the evolution of how it is operated. It has evolved from an operation that seemed destined to fail, to one that looks like it will have a bright future ahead of it. This successful future is due in large part to pilots like me and my fellow brethren at CJC with CJC ALPA serving as a conduit to the company. If you think otherwise, you are not aware of the history of this airplane with this company. The other idiot and I just want recognition for our contribution, up front. The future success of the aircraft type is tied to us, shouldn't a share of future profits also be tied to us, now?

I'm sure at heart, there is not a Q pilot at CJC that doesn't feel this way. Whether they express it outwardly or not. This is an emotional argument, but after what we have been through, it's pretty tough to not let emotions enter into the equation.[/QUOT

Having been one of the 11 initial cadre for the Q, I could not agree more. I've been gone for 2 years now, but I still have great friends slugging it out in the trenches. I am glad ya'll got a TA in place, but from what I am seeing the Q rates are lower than deserved. The FAA (read Chris M...) were out for blood during those proving runs, all of us were ready to quit but we cowboyed up and got that plane on line. This doesn't affect me, but the initial cadre guys still there are going on 7+ years of service. From what I can read the junoir guys hired on the Q did well for themselves but the guys who were there when the CJC had more 1900's than Saabs were not compensated for their sacrifices. These senoir guys are the reasons ALPA's on property now. That airplane is a money maker and should be on par NOW with CRJ200 rates(or greater), it sure makes a lot more money. I know not everybody is going to be satisfied, but a tip of the hat would have been nice.

 

[suupah]

So do you think that other pilots under the Pinnacle Corp umbrella should have had to take a pay cut to fund your 25+% pay rate increase (plus all the other goodies in this TA) that you felt entitled to?

no they absolutely shouldn't. the company can afford the pay parity, and they should pay it.

 

[CptMurf]

JMing has been almost non-existent at XJ for a long time. It does happen, but it is the exception, not the rule. There are some work rules that will stop most of the JMing 9E sees now. Biggest one is not checking out, and no obligation to answer the phone. It is then up to you to answer first, then decide whether to refuse. Same with extensions.

 

[WayBack]

no they absolutely shouldn't. the company can afford the pay parity, and they should pay it.

They should, but this is a failure in the negotiating. They threw the CJC guys under the bus to get what they wanted.
They just figure CJC has always been the red headed step child, so why change now?

 

[Smarta$$]

You would not have secured Q rates any hire if you did it on your own. In fact, you would have no TA to complain about.

 

[RJLoser]

JMing has been almost non-existent at XJ for a long time. It does happen, but it is the exception, not the rule. There are some work rules that will stop most of the JMing 9E sees now. Biggest one is not checking out, and no obligation to answer the phone. It is then up to you to answer first, then decide whether to refuse. Same with extensions.

Good deal. JM'ing has been out of control. Not having to check out would be a huge help.

 

[Smarta$$]

The JCBA Agreement has 11 scheduled days off for reserves but they can be JA'd down to 10. Scheduling will ignore the comp day requests and force them to take the pay or grieve it. Like they have soooo many times before. The MIN day was always on the table - if you were willing to pay for it. This time you will.

So your saying that if I lose the 11th day off, I will get paid extra by selling a comp day. Was that how it was in TA1?????? Hell no. So I either get 11 off or 10 off with extra pay (comp day) and 200% junior assignment pay above guarantee. That is incredibly better than the garbage that was TA1.

Try again.

 

[nellie2110]

You don't understand because you have no idea what we have been through with this Q program. three years of utter hell. This rate is a slap in the face.

I understand why it has to be this way, I understand that it is going to pass with this rate. Don't expect me to be happy about it. It's time for the company to recognize the initial cadre of pilots that laid the foundation for the future of this company. That foundation was laid with investigations, violations, long days and many many hard lessons that the future Q pilots will never have to learn the hard way like we did. I just want a rate right off of the bat that recognizes this.

I have close to 2500 hours in this plane. I have seen the evolution of how it is operated. It has evolved from an operation that seemed destined to fail, to one that looks like it will have a bright future ahead of it. This successful future is due in large part to pilots like me and my fellow brethren at CJC with CJC ALPA serving as a conduit to the company. If you think otherwise, you are not aware of the history of this airplane with this company. The other idiot and I just want recognition for our contribution, up front. The future success of the aircraft type is tied to us, shouldn't a share of future profits also be tied to us, now?

I'm sure at heart, there is not a Q pilot at CJC that doesn't feel this way. Whether they express it outwardly or not. This is an emotional argument, but after what we have been through, it's pretty tough to not let emotions enter into the equation.

Not sure why everything was so hard for you guys, but I have been apart of adding a new fleet type to an airline and it went really smooth and easy for the most part. Sure there are some problems and bumps here and there, but they can be minimized if you have the right pilots and management working on it.

 

[suupah]

You would not have secured Q rates any hire if you did it on your own. In fact, you would have no TA to complain about.

I know this. We would have probably ended up with pretty crappy deal on our own. Much less leverage and it doesn't take much to improve incrementally from where we were.

If you were on the Q, you would probably not be happy with the first four years of this contract after 3 years at essentially the the mesaba 340 rate with draconian workrules. There are only 170 give or take a couple Q pilots. 4 bucks for parity is not that much money for the company to cough up the first year.

I am going to quite posting on these forums. This TA will pass, overall everyone will be happy, but the Q pay thing will still feel like a flick (not a kick) in the balls.

 

[Smarta$$]

I know this. We would have probably ended up with pretty crappy deal on our own. Much less leverage and it doesn't take much to improve incrementally from where we were.

If you were on the Q, you would probably not be happy with the first four years of this contract after 3 years at essentially the the mesaba 340 rate with draconian workrules. There are only 170 give or take a couple Q pilots. 4 bucks for parity is not that much money for the company to cough up the first year.

I am going to quite posting on these forums. This TA will pass, overall everyone will be happy, but the Q pay thing will still feel like a flick (not a kick) in the balls.

For the record, I am NOT happy with the Q rates, the split saab rates or the min day carve out.

I do understand to a degree why the saab rates are what they are because I don't think anyone should start work under the new TA with a lower rate than before.

Those 3 items suck, but YOU (and the rest of us) will be worse off if this gets voted down. It is still a big raise with work rules and benefits far better than you would ever have achieved.

Its still a good package, until the full language and road shows prove otherwise.

 

[Smarta$$]

The JCBA Agreement has 11 scheduled days off for reserves but they can be JA'd down to 10. Scheduling will ignore the comp day requests and force them to take the pay or grieve it. Like they have soooo many times before. The MIN day was always on the table - if you were willing to pay for it. This time you will.

Thinking about this more, reserves will either get 11 off, or they can sell their comp day (4 hours above guarantee) and get JA pay (8 hours MINIMUM above guarantee).

So an average reserve RJ captain at 70. per hour, would either get 11 days off or a minimum of 12x70= 840 dollars above guarantee for ONE day of work.

You want to compare THAT to TA1? Seriously?

 

[sinkrate]

Good deal. JM'ing has been out of control. Not having to check out would be a huge help.

Not checking out won't help with that - it just saves time getting to the bus or catching your ride home. In years past when PCL pilots didn't check out Crew Scheduling simply killed your release on your last leg - until you called. You could not even print it. Mesaba isn't JM'ing because they have a lot of staffing. Their contract provisions have little to do with it. They are an Airline that has been furloughing for some time.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

We have had times of being short on the staffing here over the years as well. We still didn't J.M. anywhere close to what Pinnacle does. It is a difference in company cultures as much as anything else.

 

[sinkrate]

Thinking about this more, reserves will either get 11 off, or they can sell their comp day (4 hours above guarantee) and get JA pay (8 hours MINIMUM above guarantee).

So an average reserve RJ captain at 70. per hour, would either get 11 days off or a minimum of 12x70= 840 dollars above guarantee for ONE day of work.

You want to compare THAT to TA1? Seriously?

You appear to be chasing money. Look at the line awards when they come out. Most pilots say they want the money and then choose the time off. Go figure. Right now the company is offering FO's five hours of CA pay to sit in the sim for 3 hours. None of them are taking them up on it. They choose to keep their day off instead. The company is useing check airmen on their days off - because they can make them do it and a few volunteer CA's.

For pilots with families the commitments they have on their days off are substantial. Once the company forces them to break an important commitment once their entire family lives in fear of another junior man. Kid's ask 'do you really mean it this time?' It's that fear that is so corrosive to family commitments - not the actual junior man itself. And that is why the majority of pilots chose time off over pay.

Your original question is essentially - what price can we buy your family life for? Most pilots will answer it's not for sale - period. And that is why there are so many extension and junior man refusals. And why this topic is so hotly debated.

If you are going to schedule someone for 11 days off you should really mean it. TA1 ensured reserve pilots received their days off - period, could get home on their last day of work and kept them in domicile instead of a hotel in where ever. None of this indian giving stuff. They could work over time - if and only if it was their choice, not the company's.

The pay rates in this TA are an improvement - and it will no doubt be ratified. However - the current '99 book gives all pilots more control over their life than the JCBA TA. Everyone should understand what they sold and at what price.