Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan get TA

[Smarta$$]

You would not have secured Q rates any hire if you did it on your own. In fact, you would have no TA to complain about.

 

[RJLoser]

JMing has been almost non-existent at XJ for a long time. It does happen, but it is the exception, not the rule. There are some work rules that will stop most of the JMing 9E sees now. Biggest one is not checking out, and no obligation to answer the phone. It is then up to you to answer first, then decide whether to refuse. Same with extensions.

Good deal. JM'ing has been out of control. Not having to check out would be a huge help.

 

[Smarta$$]

The JCBA Agreement has 11 scheduled days off for reserves but they can be JA'd down to 10. Scheduling will ignore the comp day requests and force them to take the pay or grieve it. Like they have soooo many times before. The MIN day was always on the table - if you were willing to pay for it. This time you will.

So your saying that if I lose the 11th day off, I will get paid extra by selling a comp day. Was that how it was in TA1?????? Hell no. So I either get 11 off or 10 off with extra pay (comp day) and 200% junior assignment pay above guarantee. That is incredibly better than the garbage that was TA1.

Try again.

 

[nellie2110]

You don't understand because you have no idea what we have been through with this Q program. three years of utter hell. This rate is a slap in the face.

I understand why it has to be this way, I understand that it is going to pass with this rate. Don't expect me to be happy about it. It's time for the company to recognize the initial cadre of pilots that laid the foundation for the future of this company. That foundation was laid with investigations, violations, long days and many many hard lessons that the future Q pilots will never have to learn the hard way like we did. I just want a rate right off of the bat that recognizes this.

I have close to 2500 hours in this plane. I have seen the evolution of how it is operated. It has evolved from an operation that seemed destined to fail, to one that looks like it will have a bright future ahead of it. This successful future is due in large part to pilots like me and my fellow brethren at CJC with CJC ALPA serving as a conduit to the company. If you think otherwise, you are not aware of the history of this airplane with this company. The other idiot and I just want recognition for our contribution, up front. The future success of the aircraft type is tied to us, shouldn't a share of future profits also be tied to us, now?

I'm sure at heart, there is not a Q pilot at CJC that doesn't feel this way. Whether they express it outwardly or not. This is an emotional argument, but after what we have been through, it's pretty tough to not let emotions enter into the equation.

Not sure why everything was so hard for you guys, but I have been apart of adding a new fleet type to an airline and it went really smooth and easy for the most part. Sure there are some problems and bumps here and there, but they can be minimized if you have the right pilots and management working on it.

 

[suupah]

You would not have secured Q rates any hire if you did it on your own. In fact, you would have no TA to complain about.

I know this. We would have probably ended up with pretty crappy deal on our own. Much less leverage and it doesn't take much to improve incrementally from where we were.

If you were on the Q, you would probably not be happy with the first four years of this contract after 3 years at essentially the the mesaba 340 rate with draconian workrules. There are only 170 give or take a couple Q pilots. 4 bucks for parity is not that much money for the company to cough up the first year.

I am going to quite posting on these forums. This TA will pass, overall everyone will be happy, but the Q pay thing will still feel like a flick (not a kick) in the balls.

 

[Smarta$$]

I know this. We would have probably ended up with pretty crappy deal on our own. Much less leverage and it doesn't take much to improve incrementally from where we were.

If you were on the Q, you would probably not be happy with the first four years of this contract after 3 years at essentially the the mesaba 340 rate with draconian workrules. There are only 170 give or take a couple Q pilots. 4 bucks for parity is not that much money for the company to cough up the first year.

I am going to quite posting on these forums. This TA will pass, overall everyone will be happy, but the Q pay thing will still feel like a flick (not a kick) in the balls.

For the record, I am NOT happy with the Q rates, the split saab rates or the min day carve out.

I do understand to a degree why the saab rates are what they are because I don't think anyone should start work under the new TA with a lower rate than before.

Those 3 items suck, but YOU (and the rest of us) will be worse off if this gets voted down. It is still a big raise with work rules and benefits far better than you would ever have achieved.

Its still a good package, until the full language and road shows prove otherwise.

 

[Smarta$$]

The JCBA Agreement has 11 scheduled days off for reserves but they can be JA'd down to 10. Scheduling will ignore the comp day requests and force them to take the pay or grieve it. Like they have soooo many times before. The MIN day was always on the table - if you were willing to pay for it. This time you will.

Thinking about this more, reserves will either get 11 off, or they can sell their comp day (4 hours above guarantee) and get JA pay (8 hours MINIMUM above guarantee).

So an average reserve RJ captain at 70. per hour, would either get 11 days off or a minimum of 12x70= 840 dollars above guarantee for ONE day of work.

You want to compare THAT to TA1? Seriously?

 

[sinkrate]

Good deal. JM'ing has been out of control. Not having to check out would be a huge help.

Not checking out won't help with that - it just saves time getting to the bus or catching your ride home. In years past when PCL pilots didn't check out Crew Scheduling simply killed your release on your last leg - until you called. You could not even print it. Mesaba isn't JM'ing because they have a lot of staffing. Their contract provisions have little to do with it. They are an Airline that has been furloughing for some time.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

We have had times of being short on the staffing here over the years as well. We still didn't J.M. anywhere close to what Pinnacle does. It is a difference in company cultures as much as anything else.

 

[sinkrate]

Thinking about this more, reserves will either get 11 off, or they can sell their comp day (4 hours above guarantee) and get JA pay (8 hours MINIMUM above guarantee).

So an average reserve RJ captain at 70. per hour, would either get 11 days off or a minimum of 12x70= 840 dollars above guarantee for ONE day of work.

You want to compare THAT to TA1? Seriously?

You appear to be chasing money. Look at the line awards when they come out. Most pilots say they want the money and then choose the time off. Go figure. Right now the company is offering FO's five hours of CA pay to sit in the sim for 3 hours. None of them are taking them up on it. They choose to keep their day off instead. The company is useing check airmen on their days off - because they can make them do it and a few volunteer CA's.

For pilots with families the commitments they have on their days off are substantial. Once the company forces them to break an important commitment once their entire family lives in fear of another junior man. Kid's ask 'do you really mean it this time?' It's that fear that is so corrosive to family commitments - not the actual junior man itself. And that is why the majority of pilots chose time off over pay.

Your original question is essentially - what price can we buy your family life for? Most pilots will answer it's not for sale - period. And that is why there are so many extension and junior man refusals. And why this topic is so hotly debated.

If you are going to schedule someone for 11 days off you should really mean it. TA1 ensured reserve pilots received their days off - period, could get home on their last day of work and kept them in domicile instead of a hotel in where ever. None of this indian giving stuff. They could work over time - if and only if it was their choice, not the company's.

The pay rates in this TA are an improvement - and it will no doubt be ratified. However - the current '99 book gives all pilots more control over their life than the JCBA TA. Everyone should understand what they sold and at what price.

 

[RJLoser]

Not checking out won't help with that - it just saves time getting to the bus or catching your ride home. In years past when PCL pilots didn't check out Crew Scheduling simply killed your release on your last leg - until you called. You could not even print it. Mesaba isn't JM'ing because they have a lot of staffing. Their contract provisions have little to do with it. They are an Airline that has been furloughing for some time.

Have the gate agent call. Sit on the plane. Mgt will not tolerate these delays for long. They better JM for a productive trip the next day. It's gonna cost them 8 hrs.

 

[DoinTime]

The pay rates in this TA are an improvement - and it will no doubt be ratified. However - the current '99 book gives all pilots more control over their life than the JCBA TA. Everyone should understand what they sold and at what price.

You must have your head completely up your a** if you think the '99 PCL book gave pilots more control over their lives. I think its pretty clear that you have no idea what our current book even allows.

 

[sinkrate]

You must have your head completely up your a** if you think the '99 PCL book gave pilots more control over their lives. I think its pretty clear that you have no idea what our current book even allows.

Assignments that are now called 'extensions' in the current book can be refused once a month, nine in a year. The JCBA redefines these and lumps them in with 'junior assignments.' The number of refusals is limited to three a year, vs nine currently. This also puts a hard limit on JA refusals - something that is not even in the current book. This will force pilots to husband their refusals until they really need them. Pilots will learn to keep at least one of them unused until December. This will more than likely result in a significant drop in the number of refusals. Perversly, the company will have a greater degree of certianty these assignments will be accepted than they do now.

I know exactly what is in the 'current book'.

 

[XJohXJ]

If the pilot and company cannot mutually agree upon the date of a comp day, the pilot will submit 3 days and the company must choose one. Comp days can only be sold voluntarily by the pilot. If the company chooses to not follow the TA, we will have as strong and active of a grievance committee as we need. There is good grievance language in the TA, as well.

 

[WayBack]

You appear to be chasing money.

what else should we be chasing?
families aren't for sale, but more pay would make it a bit better. You get better pay, guys won't need to pick up open time to make extra cash to pay the bills.

"QOL" in the contract will always be raped by management, no matter how great it is. This is where ALPA needs to be cut and dry on the wording, otherwise the language allows for different interpretations and loop holes.

 

[Raskal]

what else should we be chasing?
families aren't for sale, but more pay would make it a bit better. You get better pay, guys won't need to pick up open time to make extra cash to pay the bills.

"QOL" in the contract will always be raped by management, no matter how great it is. This is where ALPA needs to be cut and dry on the wording, otherwise the language allows for different interpretations and loop holes.

Therein lies the problem, all this talk about "quality work rules". Work rules are used when convenient and tossed when they aren't. Grievances are basically useless when you need Wednesday off and end up with two comp days 6 weeks from now (actual example).

The problem is people have completely lost the definition of "QOL". "Quality of Life" is directly related to how much you are paid for the lack of it. I don't go to work for days off, I go to work for money.

 

[DoinTime]

Assignments that are now called 'extensions' in the current book can be refused once a month, nine in a year. The JCBA redefines these and lumps them in with 'junior assignments.' The number of refusals is limited to three a year, vs nine currently. This also puts a hard limit on JA refusals - something that is not even in the current book. This will force pilots to husband their refusals until they really need them. Pilots will learn to keep at least one of them unused until December. This will more than likely result in a significant drop in the number of refusals. Perversly, the company will have a greater degree of certianty these assignments will be accepted than they do now.

I know exactly what is in the 'current book'.

Which one of these is better?

Current PCL book on junior assignments:
- Unlimited quantity and frequency
- No requirement to use reserves first
- 125% premium pay
- No refusability
- No minimum day off standard other than 1 day off in 7.

New book (per summary):
- Limited to eight duty periods per year and two per month
- Must use all reserves first
- 150% pay (same day)/200% pay (scheduled off day) + Plus min day applies to premium
- Comp day awarded to all off day assignments (except for the first event per year if you are awarded above 11 days off)
- Guaranteed refusability on three per year
- No J/A below 10 days off

 

[WayBack]

The problem is people have completely lost the definition of "QOL". "Quality of Life" is directly related to how much you are paid for the lack of it. I don't go to work for days off, I go to work for money.

ALPA cheerleaders will tell everyone that "Flying the Line" is a MUST read for all airline pilots. I doubt any of them, especially at Nation and locals levels have even read it themselves.
In the book, page 2 he Hopkins writes " ALPA's primary function has always been to make sure pilots got a decent wage. The corollary to this pursuit has been to see if they lived long enough to spend it."

Seems to me that ALPA has moved away from that, and now just worries about QOL....and what a wonderful job they have done.

Don't go spending all that money at once now, ya hear?!

 

[WIPilot]

Which one of these is better?

Current PCL book on junior assignments:
- Unlimited quantity and frequency
- No requirement to use reserves first
- 125% premium pay
- No refusability
- No minimum day off standard other than 1 day off in 7.

New book (per summary):
- Limited to eight duty periods per year and two per month
- Must use all reserves first
- 150% pay (same day)/200% pay (scheduled off day) + Plus min day applies to premium
- Comp day awarded to all off day assignments (except for the first event per year if you are awarded above 11 days off)
- Guaranteed refusability on three per year
- No J/A below 10 days off

I'm not disagreeing with you at all on the point you are trying to make, but I think Pinnacle already has refusability of some sort

 

[DoinTime]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all on the point you are trying to make, but I think Pinnacle already has refusability of some sort

We don't have contractual refusability on junior assignments. Lots of people refuse to do them and management doesn't seem to care but its not because the contract gives us that ability.