Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan get TA

[RJLoser]

Not checking out won't help with that - it just saves time getting to the bus or catching your ride home. In years past when PCL pilots didn't check out Crew Scheduling simply killed your release on your last leg - until you called. You could not even print it. Mesaba isn't JM'ing because they have a lot of staffing. Their contract provisions have little to do with it. They are an Airline that has been furloughing for some time.

Have the gate agent call. Sit on the plane. Mgt will not tolerate these delays for long. They better JM for a productive trip the next day. It's gonna cost them 8 hrs.

 

[DoinTime]

The pay rates in this TA are an improvement - and it will no doubt be ratified. However - the current '99 book gives all pilots more control over their life than the JCBA TA. Everyone should understand what they sold and at what price.

You must have your head completely up your a** if you think the '99 PCL book gave pilots more control over their lives. I think its pretty clear that you have no idea what our current book even allows.

 

[sinkrate]

You must have your head completely up your a** if you think the '99 PCL book gave pilots more control over their lives. I think its pretty clear that you have no idea what our current book even allows.

Assignments that are now called 'extensions' in the current book can be refused once a month, nine in a year. The JCBA redefines these and lumps them in with 'junior assignments.' The number of refusals is limited to three a year, vs nine currently. This also puts a hard limit on JA refusals - something that is not even in the current book. This will force pilots to husband their refusals until they really need them. Pilots will learn to keep at least one of them unused until December. This will more than likely result in a significant drop in the number of refusals. Perversly, the company will have a greater degree of certianty these assignments will be accepted than they do now.

I know exactly what is in the 'current book'.

 

[XJohXJ]

If the pilot and company cannot mutually agree upon the date of a comp day, the pilot will submit 3 days and the company must choose one. Comp days can only be sold voluntarily by the pilot. If the company chooses to not follow the TA, we will have as strong and active of a grievance committee as we need. There is good grievance language in the TA, as well.

 

[WayBack]

You appear to be chasing money.

what else should we be chasing?
families aren't for sale, but more pay would make it a bit better. You get better pay, guys won't need to pick up open time to make extra cash to pay the bills.

"QOL" in the contract will always be raped by management, no matter how great it is. This is where ALPA needs to be cut and dry on the wording, otherwise the language allows for different interpretations and loop holes.

 

[Raskal]

what else should we be chasing?
families aren't for sale, but more pay would make it a bit better. You get better pay, guys won't need to pick up open time to make extra cash to pay the bills.

"QOL" in the contract will always be raped by management, no matter how great it is. This is where ALPA needs to be cut and dry on the wording, otherwise the language allows for different interpretations and loop holes.

Therein lies the problem, all this talk about "quality work rules". Work rules are used when convenient and tossed when they aren't. Grievances are basically useless when you need Wednesday off and end up with two comp days 6 weeks from now (actual example).

The problem is people have completely lost the definition of "QOL". "Quality of Life" is directly related to how much you are paid for the lack of it. I don't go to work for days off, I go to work for money.

 

[DoinTime]

Assignments that are now called 'extensions' in the current book can be refused once a month, nine in a year. The JCBA redefines these and lumps them in with 'junior assignments.' The number of refusals is limited to three a year, vs nine currently. This also puts a hard limit on JA refusals - something that is not even in the current book. This will force pilots to husband their refusals until they really need them. Pilots will learn to keep at least one of them unused until December. This will more than likely result in a significant drop in the number of refusals. Perversly, the company will have a greater degree of certianty these assignments will be accepted than they do now.

I know exactly what is in the 'current book'.

Which one of these is better?

Current PCL book on junior assignments:
- Unlimited quantity and frequency
- No requirement to use reserves first
- 125% premium pay
- No refusability
- No minimum day off standard other than 1 day off in 7.

New book (per summary):
- Limited to eight duty periods per year and two per month
- Must use all reserves first
- 150% pay (same day)/200% pay (scheduled off day) + Plus min day applies to premium
- Comp day awarded to all off day assignments (except for the first event per year if you are awarded above 11 days off)
- Guaranteed refusability on three per year
- No J/A below 10 days off

 

[WayBack]

The problem is people have completely lost the definition of "QOL". "Quality of Life" is directly related to how much you are paid for the lack of it. I don't go to work for days off, I go to work for money.

ALPA cheerleaders will tell everyone that "Flying the Line" is a MUST read for all airline pilots. I doubt any of them, especially at Nation and locals levels have even read it themselves.
In the book, page 2 he Hopkins writes " ALPA's primary function has always been to make sure pilots got a decent wage. The corollary to this pursuit has been to see if they lived long enough to spend it."

Seems to me that ALPA has moved away from that, and now just worries about QOL....and what a wonderful job they have done.

Don't go spending all that money at once now, ya hear?!

 

[WIPilot]

Which one of these is better?

Current PCL book on junior assignments:
- Unlimited quantity and frequency
- No requirement to use reserves first
- 125% premium pay
- No refusability
- No minimum day off standard other than 1 day off in 7.

New book (per summary):
- Limited to eight duty periods per year and two per month
- Must use all reserves first
- 150% pay (same day)/200% pay (scheduled off day) + Plus min day applies to premium
- Comp day awarded to all off day assignments (except for the first event per year if you are awarded above 11 days off)
- Guaranteed refusability on three per year
- No J/A below 10 days off

I'm not disagreeing with you at all on the point you are trying to make, but I think Pinnacle already has refusability of some sort

 

[DoinTime]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all on the point you are trying to make, but I think Pinnacle already has refusability of some sort

We don't have contractual refusability on junior assignments. Lots of people refuse to do them and management doesn't seem to care but its not because the contract gives us that ability.

 

[WIPilot]

We don't have contractual refusability on junior assignments. Lots of people refuse to do them and management doesn't seem to care but its not because the contract gives us that ability.

I was told incorrectly then...I'll take your word for it

 

[CptMurf]

Therein lies the problem, all this talk about "quality work rules". Work rules are used when convenient and tossed when they aren't. Grievances are basically useless when you need Wednesday off and end up with two comp days 6 weeks from now (actual example).

The problem is people have completely lost the definition of "QOL". "Quality of Life" is directly related to how much you are paid for the lack of it. I don't go to work for days off, I go to work for money.

XJ has had the luxury of Mgmt. following the contract and honoring our work rules, for the most part (there are exceptions). It will be the pilots responsibility in this merger to enforce the contract, and MAKE managment follow it. If people let them disregard the contract, it becomes status quo, and unenforceable. This is an area where we, as pilots, must educate ourselves on the contract, and not accept anything that is not legal. The more we stick together in this area, the better it will become for everyone.

 

[Crowing Rooster]

Assignments that are now called 'extensions' in the current book can be refused once a month, nine in a year. The JCBA redefines these and lumps them in with 'junior assignments.' The number of refusals is limited to three a year, vs nine currently. This also puts a hard limit on JA refusals - something that is not even in the current book. This will force pilots to husband their refusals until they really need them. Pilots will learn to keep at least one of them unused until December. This will more than likely result in a significant drop in the number of refusals. Perversly, the company will have a greater degree of certianty these assignments will be accepted than they do now.

I know exactly what is in the 'current book'.

Sink rate this is not a step back with JA's. The reason is this, if you look at the whole of the summary. The whole strategy of it is to make it so costly for the company to continue opperating like they are that they are going to change practice to save money. How so? If they JA on a day off they must pay a min day of 4 hours and pay it at 200%. Now we will have to read the language very carefully to see if there is wiggle room around the intent but this will put financial pressure to staff normally. With the health insurance per employee less for the company they may make out better to hire more pilots. In the long term you'll be lucky to use those JA refusals, just a guess.

 

[Smarta$$]

You appear to be chasing money. Look at the line awards when they come out. Most pilots say they want the money and then choose the time off. Go figure. Right now the company is offering FO's five hours of CA pay to sit in the sim for 3 hours. None of them are taking them up on it. They choose to keep their day off instead. The company is useing check airmen on their days off - because they can make them do it and a few volunteer CA's.

For pilots with families the commitments they have on their days off are substantial. Once the company forces them to break an important commitment once their entire family lives in fear of another junior man. Kid's ask 'do you really mean it this time?' It's that fear that is so corrosive to family commitments - not the actual junior man itself. And that is why the majority of pilots chose time off over pay.

Your original question is essentially - what price can we buy your family life for? Most pilots will answer it's not for sale - period. And that is why there are so many extension and junior man refusals. And why this topic is so hotly debated.

If you are going to schedule someone for 11 days off you should really mean it. TA1 ensured reserve pilots received their days off - period, could get home on their last day of work and kept them in domicile instead of a hotel in where ever. None of this indian giving stuff. They could work over time - if and only if it was their choice, not the company's.

The pay rates in this TA are an improvement - and it will no doubt be ratified. However - the current '99 book gives all pilots more control over their life than the JCBA TA. Everyone should understand what they sold and at what price.

What a Fu$&ING joke this post is. TA1 had 10 (TEN) DAYS OFF. You were guaranteed TEN. And you got paid 75 hours for 20-21 days of work.

Now, you GUARANTEED 10 days off, but with 87 hours of credit. If they don't JA you, which I went years on reserve without being JA, then you get 11 (ELEVEN) days off, and still get 75 hours pay for 19-20 days of work.

Either way, we are guaranteed 10 days off. The difference is under JCBA, we either get an additional day off to TA1 or 12 hours of pay above guarantee.

You have NO argument here at all. It is a huge improvement, unqualified. You are still trying to put lipstick on that pig that was TA1.

You couldn't convince us then that it was acceptable, and history will be no kinder to TA1.

 

[higney85]

XJ has had the luxury of Mgmt. following the contract and honoring our work rules, for the most part (there are exceptions). It will be the pilots responsibility in this merger to enforce the contract, and MAKE managment follow it. If people let them disregard the contract, it becomes status quo, and unenforceable. This is an area where we, as pilots, must educate ourselves on the contract, and not accept anything that is not legal. The more we stick together in this area, the better it will become for everyone.

Very good post, all 100% true and needed. "wheeling and dealing" may help a guy make a couple extra bucks but down the line can screw everyone, including the pilot that made the deal the previous month.