Pinnacle is Going Bye Bye!

[ohplease!]

officially posted in the pairings for march of 08 in the bid packet......ATL to TLH.....13 minutes in the air with a 15 minute turn in ATL.......yeah thats realistic on a 76 seat jet with a company who has only had a 900 program in place for less than a year.....I would LOVE to see ASA pull this off out of the C concourse....management is incompetent everywhere, not just here...but in all fairness these block times and pairings were flat out not fair and unrealistic....this is bullcrap, this company does not deserve to be classified at a Mesa level....the pilot group is trying everyday to get a contract contrary to popular belief....things are going to get ugly on Nonconnah......just hope we arent forced to cut anyone.

Let me preface this by this:
I don't want to see any PCL (or other) pilot furloughed.

However, PCL couldn't cover its NW flying and chose to take on setting up an entirely new program/base/code share. Like I said somewhere else; an argument can be made that ANY airline mgmt is inept (with the exception of maybe Southwest and Virgin) but, PCL taking on this task was just plane (I know , I know) dumb.

Its not the pilots fault and there was nothing you could have done to stop it. BUT, it was ALWAYS a temporary situation for DL. Same as Freedumb.

I hope you guys swap some of your 200's out for the 900's you have and paint them gray and red. But, you shouldn't have been in ATL to start with.

 

[DTWFO]

When you get a chance, google the Ford sitdown strike. That's how a union should operate, "law" be damned.

Amen!!!! I'm so sick and tired of this "that would be an illegal work action". WHO CARES at this point!!! So they fine the union and put some of the heads in jail for a couple days. WHO CARES!! Get what we want and pay the fine....move on. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. I'm so sick of these ALPA chest-thumpers. We're just supposed to follow your "negotiate" forever ad naseum to our own graves. BS! Close it down and then see how fast things change.

 

[PCL_128]

When you get a chance, google the Ford sitdown strike. That's how a union should operate, "law" be damned.

I think you need to do some of your own research. First, the famous Flint "sit-down" strike was a strike against GM, not Ford. Second, the strike itself was not illegal. UAW workers can wildcat strike whenever they want. The law doesn't restrict their rights to strike. What was illegal was the supposed "trespassing." Rather than the usual picketing, they simply "sat down" inside the plant and refused to leave. The judge's injunction was later found to be illegitimate anyway, since he was a major shareholder in GM at the time.

None of this is analogous to our situation at all. The fledgeling GM was really risking nothing during the Flint strike. The individual strikers risked getting thrown in jail for a short time, but the union couldn't be fined into oblivion as we can be. If we engage in illegal strikes, then the courts will fine ALPA into bankruptcy in short order. The union will cease to exist before your illegal strike is even over, and you'll be left with no protection.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

officially posted in the pairings for march of 08 in the bid packet......ATL to TLH.....13 minutes in the air with a 15 minute turn in ATL........

Is TLH in the Central Time Zone? How about 1 hour and 13 minutes of block time?

 

[SaturnPilot]

Amen!!!! I'm so sick and tired of this "that would be an illegal work action". WHO CARES at this point!!! So they fine the union and put some of the heads in jail for a couple days. WHO CARES!! Get what we want and pay the fine....move on. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. I'm so sick of these ALPA chest-thumpers. We're just supposed to follow your "negotiate" forever ad naseum to our own graves. BS! Close it down and then see how fast things change.

I see your point and I wish it would be this way also, but I think if we asked our fellow pilots in union leadership to go to prison for us, we wouldn't have anybody volunteering for union leadership. Plus, I don't think the fine would be very small.

I do think, however, that if all pilot groups grew a pair and acted like NW, ASA, etc pilots did by running a safe operation, the scales would lean more in our favor. Either way something needs to change if we're to make this any bit of a career worth having again.

 

[Lear70]

Is TLH in the Central Time Zone? How about 1 hour and 13 minutes of block time?

Doesn't matter... the point is that it's a 15 minute turn in ATL. With ASA gate agents.

No offense, but the ground crews and gate agents there can't run an on-time operation to save their life.

EVERY TIME I get on an RJ in ATL, I can count on it being late. These days it's as a paying passenger, and I tell our dispatch to just plan an extra 30 minutes onto the arrival time.

Now add a company that ASA directly competes with (no incentive to hurry), plus a 15 minute turn, and there's no WAY they're going to make on-time. Just not realistic.

As far as ASA's go, I bet this one goes the way of Mesa; DAL will have to pay for the operation since Delta didn't meet the requirement to have the schedules "mutually agreeable". Won't help the downsizing of the ops on the pilot and f/a side, but PCL will still make money off of it for a while...

 

[spudskier]

Doesn't matter... the point is that it's a 15 minute turn in ATL. With ASA gate agents.

No offense, but the ground crews and gate agents there can't run an on-time operation to save their life.

Just to clarify, it's DELTA gate agents and DELTA ground handlers... DAL took control over that about 6 months ago in ATL.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Doesn't matter... the point is that it's a 15 minute turn in ATL. With ASA gate agents.

No offense, but the ground crews and gate agents there can't run an on-time operation to save their life.

EVERY TIME I get on an RJ in ATL, I can count on it being late. These days it's as a paying passenger, and I tell our dispatch to just plan an extra 30 minutes onto the arrival time.

Now add a company that ASA directly competes with (no incentive to hurry), plus a 15 minute turn, and there's no WAY they're going to make on-time. Just not realistic.

As far as ASA's go, I bet this one goes the way of Mesa; DAL will have to pay for the operation since Delta didn't meet the requirement to have the schedules "mutually agreeable". Won't help the downsizing of the ops on the pilot and f/a side, but PCL will still make money off of it for a while...

Delta handles the gate and the ramp in ATL for everyone....We all have the same disadvantage there...

 

[flyboyike]

I think you need to do some of your own research. First, the famous Flint "sit-down" strike was a strike against GM, not Ford. Second, the strike itself was not illegal. UAW workers can wildcat strike whenever they want. The law doesn't restrict their rights to strike. What was illegal was the supposed "trespassing." Rather than the usual picketing, they simply "sat down" inside the plant and refused to leave. The judge's injunction was later found to be illegitimate anyway, since he was a major shareholder in GM at the time.

None of this is analogous to our situation at all. The fledgeling GM was really risking nothing during the Flint strike. The individual strikers risked getting thrown in jail for a short time, but the union couldn't be fined into oblivion as we can be. If we engage in illegal strikes, then the courts will fine ALPA into bankruptcy in short order. The union will cease to exist before your illegal strike is even over, and you'll be left with no protection.

I think you missed my point. Those folks went on strike (legal or not) despite death threats, nightsticks and police dogs. IOW, they didn't care whose side the law was on.

As for "our situation", do you really think the guvmint will jail thousands of people at a time?

 

[PCL_128]

I think you missed my point. Those folks went on strike (legal or not) despite death threats, nightsticks and police dogs. IOW, they didn't care whose side the law was on.

Yes, and the history of organized labor contains many such examples, some of which are a lot more violent and deadly than the Flint strike. None of that translates to our situation, however.

As for "our situation", do you really think the guvmint will jail thousands of people at a time?

They don't have to. They'll simply fine ALPA $100 million and the union will cease to exist overnight. As soon as union protection disappear, the pilots will start crossing the lines in droves and your strike is over. Welcome to reality.

 

[Flyprdu]

Yes, and the history of organized labor contains many such examples, some of which are a lot more violent and deadly than the Flint strike. None of that translates to our situation, however.



They don't have to. They'll simply fine ALPA $100 million and the union will cease to exist overnight. As soon as union protection disappear, the pilots will start crossing the lines in droves and your strike is over. Welcome to reality.

What a bunch of equivocating whining! It makes no sense to have a union if any sort of unionized action is strictly prohibited by union officials. It seems that the primary purpose of ALPA is the continued existence of ALPA. If that is the true intent, then you have created a dues extraction machine and nothing more.

At some point, when the game is so stacked against you, you have to turn over the table.

 

[PCL_128]

It makes no sense to have a union if any sort of unionized action is strictly prohibited by union officials.

Only illegal activity is restricted. ALPA does everything possible within the confines of the law.

It seems that the primary purpose of ALPA is the continued existence of ALPA.

The primary purpose of ALPA is defending the profession. That can't be done if ALPA ceases to exist. It's a balancing act. If you act like a bunch of criminal thugs, then the union disappears and your profession will be destroyed. If you're too cautious then you'll never make any ground. The key is finding the right balance. Sometimes ALPA is better at it than other times, but attacking the union is not an answer for you.

At some point, when the game is so stacked against you, you have to turn over the table.

The answer is trying to make sure that things aren't so stacked against us. In other words, vote pro-labor. Judging by your avatar, at least you understand that. That's better than I can say for most pilots.

 

[Lear70]

Strange... I've only been through ATL 7 or 8 times in the last 6 months on RJ's, but the counter agents were the same ASA people who were there before (recognized them from my time at AAI).

Maybe they're DAL employees now, but the flights are still late... Nice flight crews, but I have yet to see a 15 minute turn for ANY type of aircraft in ATL. Down the C concourse or anywhere else...

It might happen every once in a blue moon, but it's ludicrous to schedule it that way.

 

[Lyconit]

What a bunch of equivocating whining! It makes no sense to have a union if any sort of unionized action is strictly prohibited by union officials.


It's not that it's prohibited by the union officials, it's prohibited by the Railway Labor Act. Unlike the GM sit down whch is covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Does PCL really have 15-minute turns scheduled in ATL? It is unrealistic to do this if so. We have 40-minute turns in ATL, and that requires lots of things to happen.

The difference between PCL and ASA in my opinion is its leadership. I have to give a lot of credit to the SKW people who came in here and did in 6 months what nobody could do in the previous 6 years.

Brad knows what employee group makes or breaks this airline. It's the PILOT GROUP. (I'm sure the SKW DX's are itching to rip me a new one now).

Hear me out though. All of the different employee groups are required to make the operation work (rampers, flight attendants, MX, gate agents, and yes, even dispatchers ) However, the pilot group is perched in the cockpit watching it all unfold. If we're not getting the PAX on-time, we make a call. No fuel, we make a call. No bags or paperwork, we make a call. MX with the airplane, we make a call. No parking spot, guess what?........yup, we make a call.

Brad has enlisted the help of the pilot group by giving us more responsibility in the day-to-day operations, and has motivated us even more by throwing quarterly bonus money our way when our numbers are good.

I don't know anybody personally at PCL, but from what I read on here, your management's feet is where this failure should be laid...no where else.

Unfortunately some good people will be on the losing end as a result.

 

[flyboyike]

W
It seems that the primary purpose of ALPA is the continued existence of ALPA.

It sure is starting to seem that way.

 

[rickair7777]

What a bunch of equivocating whining! It makes no sense to have a union if any sort of unionized action is strictly prohibited by union officials. It seems that the primary purpose of ALPA is the continued existence of ALPA. If that is the true intent, then you have created a dues extraction machine and nothing more..

I assume that they are covertly looking into how to collect dues from information technology professionals. After the airlines are done, video-conferencing is going to be HUGE

 

[Lear70]

Does PCL really have 15-minute turns scheduled in ATL? It is unrealistic to do this if so. We have 40-minute turns in ATL, and that requires lots of things to happen.

The difference between PCL and ASA in my opinion is its leadership. I have to give a lot of credit to the SKW people who came in here and did in 6 months what nobody could do in the previous 6 years.

Brad knows what employee group makes or breaks this airline. It's the PILOT GROUP. (I'm sure the SKW DX's are itching to rip me a new one now).

Hear me out though. All of the different employee groups are required to make the operation work (rampers, flight attendants, MX, gate agents, and yes, even dispatchers ) However, the pilot group is perched in the cockpit watching it all unfold. If we're not getting the PAX on-time, we make a call. No fuel, we make a call. No bags or paperwork, we make a call. MX with the airplane, we make a call. No parking spot, guess what?........yup, we make a call.

Brad has enlisted the help of the pilot group by giving us more responsibility in the day-to-day operations, and has motivated us even more by throwing quarterly bonus money our way when our numbers are good.

I don't know anybody personally at PCL, but from what I read on here, your management's feet is where this failure should be laid...no where else.

Unfortunately some good people will be on the losing end as a result.

Excellent post!

There's a thought... incentivize your employees. Wow. How quaint.

Incidentally, AirTran routinely schedules 25 minute turns in ATL... sometimes with an aircraft swap. If you bust your butt, you can do it and even, most of the time, get out 2 minutes early. I was fascinated to see 717's and 737's get turned faster than the CRJ's at my previous carrier.

This, however, requires that everyone does their job perfectly and, often, I'd get out there to make sure it was getting done - A/C plugged in, strollers brought up, etc, then run for food for crew, make it back in time to finish the before start checklist and off we go. My incentive? I believed in the airline.

Silly me... :erm:

If the crews were to suddenly stop helping out and just did their thing, D-0 would probably lose double digits almost overnight. The flight crews coordinating with ground crews, including DX, gate agents, and rampers, is the glue that holds the operation together.

Screw with any portion of that, and bad things happen.

 

[another cfii]

Hey Rich,

Still refer AAI as your previous employer? How's the lawsuit going? What has NPA done for you lately? Hope all is well.

 

[bobbyice]

The west-coast condoms will soon be on probation so none of this matters. Bama is 5-1 vs. the trojans. Too bad ya'll play in such a wimp conference.