pinnacle hiring

[John_W_Thompson]

"New hire Capt slot"

Anyone care to elaborate at length what the chances are of someone who's possibly interviewing in a few weeks, with appropiate qualifications (time in type and TT), of getting a "new hire Capt slot". I have been agonizing over this one for a few weeks now.

I understand if hired, I would be hired as an FO, and then if a CA vacancy exists, I could bid for it.

I am afraid the window of opportunity will close before I can make that bid.

I hear a lot of talk on here about the dynamic situation on this topic (quick upgrade for qualified new hires). Why did this situation come about? How long will it last? Will some of the now and becoming qualified "Gulfstreamers" turn down their first upgrade?

Things I do not care about: seniority, quality of life, base

Things I care a LOT about: chances of making quick upgrade after hired, and then flying my a%% off.

Indifferent: pay (for the immediate future anyway)

Final thought:
I have read here there's a possibility of more planes (70's?) after the 129 are there, & after the contract negotiations and whipsaw dust settles. When would this occur, and would Pinnacle find themselves in a similar situation again (low time FO's unable to UG). Comments?

I appreciate the help immensly.

 

[TurboAWD]

xxxxx

 

[John_W_Thompson]

12345

 

[xrayojilp1]

Space Cowboy,

This will almost certainly be the last new hire captain vacancy in the immediate future. Don't listen to some of the Kool Aid drinkers on this site, they don't know what they are talking about, two months of good times is not what you want to listen to, listen to people who have been at the company for 5+ years.

We won't get more planes after 129. We have about 105 now? I know its well over 100 but don't know the exact number. If you need PIC turbine this could be tempting if you have plenty of time otherwise. Reserve captains have been flying quite a bit lately. At LEAST 40-50 hours a month if not many more. Expect to be extended and junior manned into your days off and get 7 - 8 days off a month on reserve. This may change soon though and there is a good chance the company will furlough you, the reserve model that they use is ridiculous. They actually PLAN to use the reserves every day and don't PLAN for unexpected contingencies. When things slow down and start to backslide will they demand to keep this model or will they allow things to get back to "normal"? I don't know, all I do know is that furloughing during negotiations is industry standard and our managment is dirtiest of the dirty, expect it.

Don't expect to ever get a line though. It would be way over 4 years and being here longer than that is practically on par with being in hell. The most important issue that you need to consider is "can you fail a checkride and still be competitve for another job" if you come on as a new hire captain you will fail. I don't care how good you are and how much you know, expect it. Our company check airmen LOATH new hire captains. I wasn't a new hire captain but I know most of those guys and I don't know any that didn't fail at least once. Most failed several times.

If you really want my advice, listen carefully. \

OH MY GOD DUDE, DON"T DO IT. RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN. WE ARE IN HELLLLL OVER HERE. THIS IS THE WORST JOB IN THE INDUSTRY. YOU WOULD BE BETTER OFF MAKING HALF AS MUCH IN A NON AVIATION JOB AND WAITING FOR SOMETHING BETTER. DON'T EVEN COME FOR THE INTERVIEW THEY WILL LIE TO YOU AND TRY TO BRAINWASH YOU. GO TO SOME COMPANY LIKE COLGAN OR GULFSTREAM AND FLY A 1900 FOR 30000 YOU WILL COME OUT AHEAD IN THE LONG RUN AND BE A BETTER PILOT FOR IT

RRRRUNNNNN RUUUUUNNNNNN RUUUUUNNNNN. AAAAAAHHHHHHHRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH



Have a nice day

PinchNickel

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Thank you

Pinchnickel,

That was a great response. Thank you. I assume you really are a Pinnacle Capt. and been there a long time. I appreciate your wisdom.

May I be succinct?

I need 1000 hrs turbine PIC and I don't care anymore about what days off I have to get it. Can I do it at Pinnacle?

I am 37. Married. 8 yr old son.
4 years of RSV at 2 regionals SIC incl 1100+ CRJ.
I don't need any more SIC (got plenty).
2 leg commuting to RSV has become a way of life for me. Line? Schmine-
I worked Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, and Superbowl Sunday last year, while 10-15 yr younger Captain (!) go party it up. (BTW happy newcomers I am not bitter, these are facts. Live with it.)

Furlough coming up (me).

I have experienced some of my own hell in this lovely seniority based industry.

I have talked to the main hiring guy (names are inappropiate in this medium I feel) at Gulfstream, and he said come to Pinnacle. Why? I know he knows stuff - because he must talk to people here since the 2 companies have such close ties.

>>This may change soon though and there is a good chance the company will furlough you, the reserve model that they use is ridiculous.

Why? Can you elaborate?

>>Most failed several times.

This was the most powerful paragraph in your letter. When they failed, what happened? Retrain? Downgrade? Back on the street? After sinking thousands into these people, don't they try to work with them? How did they fail more than once? Can I have an experienced (typed with many recurrents) union rep ride in the sim during the checkride? Can I get a videotape of it, or some other means to police them? Did the guys you knew who failed come from the CRJ (not trying to sound like I walk on water here folks)? Why specifically do the check airmen not like the street guys? Why has the company not fixed the rash of sim expenditures?

Again - I sincerely appreciate your help.

 

[miles otoole]

Space,

Why not look at CHQ or Mesa where the romored upgrades are under a year. Are they still hiring street CAs at Mesa? Give them a looksie.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Mr. Otoole,

That is a good idea. My next stop will be a street Capt, or as close as I can get to it however. I will avoid USAir regionals. I am currently looking into Otter type stuff if Pinnacle is a no go.

Space

 

[xrayojilp1]

Most companies that I know of (the way we used to do it) use reserves as a backup in case sheeat happens. Without reserves we would not be able to cover probably 30% of our flying. Right now every reserve flys every day. They take up the slack by making line guys work on their days off and extending people.

This was the most powerful paragraph in your letter. When they failed, what happened? Retrain? Downgrade? Back on the street? After sinking thousands into these people, don't they try to work with them? How did they fail more than once? Can I have an experienced (typed with many recurrents) union rep ride in the sim during the checkride? Can I get a videotape of it, or some other means to police them? Did the guys you knew who failed come from the CRJ (not trying to sound like I walk on water here folks)? Why specifically do the check airmen not like the street guys? Why has the company not fixed the rash of sim expenditures?

If you have crj time already this might really help (not that it REALLY matters but it might help if you tell the guy giving your checkride) I hate to say this but ever since I have been here we have really had a bunch of prick examiners and checkairmen. With many exceptions aside there are a hugh number of lowlife cowboys in control of your career and fate. When I say people failed twice I mean once on the oral and once on the checkride in the sim. People have even failed their line check/fed ride too. Part of this is that, hundreds of exceptions aside, we don't exactly hire the cream of the crop at least that isn't the policy of our HR. You do get two attempts at each ride so, especially with time in the plane, you should be able to get through with a little luck. As far as having a union rep in there, if you had to go with someone well known as a psycho you would be better off calling in sick because, really, who is perfect. This is like saying f u I know you don't plan to give me a fair ride so I have someone in here to make it happen. You would be even more likely to fail.

On reserve if we get 129 and keep them you would possibly get 500 hours a year. But people around here have a way of getting exactly the opposite of what they want, who knows. Most of the guys here have been here for less than five years, we have a VERY junior pilot group. There are people who have been here less than five years in the top 15% of our seniority list. Most of these guys have no idea what it is like without the extreme growth that we have had since getting our first CRJ. This is about to come to a screeching halt in the first part of 2005. Before we started growing at this company when we had jetstreams and saabs we had guys on reserve for over 3 years who hardly ever flew. We may keep growing, I would be lying if I said otherwise, but it is nothing to count on and I would give this probability less than a 5% chance.

It really is a gamble, and the odds aren't good. All I'm saying is that this isn't the great deal it sounds like on the surface. Don't drink the Kool Aid. Consider it a backup plan, like not A or B, maybe plan Y or Z, though I really have a hard time even saying that. My previous post's rant being my gut feeling.

 

[resetjetfo]

MEM perspective

The replies have mostly been right on the money about 9E, kinda depends on the perspective of the pilot. Lear 70 especially tells it like it is, so he has some very dedicated enemies in the company. I am now in MEM, was in DTW; am a FO , bidding CA.

From a MEM view, don't think too much about the street capt vacancies as attainable. Two reasons: 1) over 100 guys on the seniority list, right now, who can hold capt; 2) the vacancy was a loophole for management to use in its' games.

As to reason 1, many of the senior FOs here are playing poker with the upgrade, trying for one last holiday season with killer schedule, vacation bid,etc. They know they can hold any vacancy bid, so don't feel much pressure to upgrade yet. That has started to change after the street capt slots appeared, and contract negotiations broke off for now.

As to reason 2, the vacancy more than doubled from initial award to final. Many reasons speculated, but two have real crdibility around here. Everyone knows we will have lots of people timing out this year, CA and FO. So that's one reason for more slots on the final. But more people here in MEM are beginning to suspect the additions were also to create a loophole for adding certain people to the seniority list. Mainly some of the professional instructors, and a certain individual management would LOVE to see as Chief Pilot. Can you say, "Hatchetmen?"

Sorry to cut down your hopes, just trying to show the reality. New vacancy for Jan1 has less than 15 CA slots. Any bets on how senior those go now?

Good luck.

 

[Lear70]

The most important issue that you need to consider is "can you fail a checkride and still be competitve for another job" if you come on as a new hire captain you will fail. I don't care how good you are and how much you know, expect it. Our company check airmen LOATH new hire captains. I wasn't a new hire captain but I know most of those guys and I don't know any that didn't fail at least once. Most failed several times.

That's not really true at all. I didn't fail anything during my initial training as a street CA and neither did any of the other guys who had been flying left seat in a jet with EFIS and FMS equipment. Not the oral, and certainly not the sim ride, and I pray to God I'll never have to experience that - of course given my "special situation" I study my A*S off for two weeks before each sim but so far it's worked.

There were a few guys coming from turboprop command that had some trouble in the sim, a few guys with language issues who had some trouble on the oral, and one or two guys with attitude problems who busted out, but if you bent over backwards, drank the kool aid, and took every beating with a smile, the examiners left you alone for the most part.

Out of our class there were four internal Saab CA to Jet CA transitions - two of them pinked the sim ride once then returned to finish. There were initially 8 street captains and two instructor new-hires and we lost one of the instructors to a good fed job, annother to stupidity (kept pissing off the instructor and management so they let him go). Of the 8 Captains I believe 4 failed an oral or sim and were re-trained, none of them had any glass time or had only been flying turboprops.

Bottom line, if you are considering a street CA position, you'd better have some STRONG Captain experience and/or STRONG glass experience, preferrably time in time, because it IS an honest-to-God Firehose Experience and you'll be under one HELL of a magnifying glass since you're going to be turned loose without any experience with the company. The guys who are going to upgrade in Vac 04-07 after being here 90 to 120 days online are going to be under that same microscope.

I'm hearing some interesting things about those 5 Street Capt vacancy as well... something about some of the instructors being allowed to come to the line without resigning their DAL seniority and our Director of Training coming over to get a seniority number so they can put him into the C.P. slot - that would be 4 or 5 right slots taken right there.

I'm starting to seriously doubt if anyone who hasn't already hired on here will see a CA upgrade in the next several years. If they start class as an F/O in September, they'll finish class right about Dec and the last Vacancies for the last of the A/C deliveries will come out in probably Jan for an April or May effective date. It'll be close, especially taking the fence-sitters into account.

p.s. I thought Vacancy 04-08 only had 7 or 8 CA slots? I'm sure they'll go VERY senior - per the contract they will automatically get Christmas and New Year's off during training in December... But some of those guys may not realize that and not bid it, not wanting to be in training over Christmas.

 

[resetjetfo]

Vacancy 4-08 has 1 MEM, 5 DTW, 1 MSP slots for CA. Allowing for secondaries, call it 15 max. Simply meant to show that CA slots seem to be decreasing now, not increasing.

 

[flap operator]

Space - why don't you apply at Mesaba?



FO

 

[xrayojilp1]

Way. Way, Waiittt, You were a street captain Lear?, It all becomes clear, uh huh huh huh, really though what does it matter a jet efis experience. We all know at Pinchnickel that a jet is the easiest plane to fly and an efis plane is the easiest of the jets. What is it they say? We should make the most money flying a piston and the second most flying a turboprop. Flying a jet is like study hall in high school. Give me a freakin' break!!!

 

[Lequip]

Careful!! I'd hate to see you upset the self-ritious pilots who think we should rank up there with attorneys and physicians and other top notch professions. The truth would hurt them that if they realized that any average dumba$$ can go from ZERO time to the right seat of an airline in 6 months. FACT! And, YES, the bigger the plane and the more toys it has the EASIER it is!! Stick some heavy crusty in a senica with no f/d or auto pilot or HSI, ect. ect and watch him be all over the sky as he attempts to hand fly a raw data approach down to mins. Better yet, make him do is 7 times in one day!! Admit it, this profession isn't all most pilots make it out to be. Nonetheless, I'm gonna keep cashing my fat paychecks!

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Thanks to all you posters from Pinnacle. I think for now I am going to hold off. The risk seems too great. The information has been invaluable. Thank you all.

Someone said Mesaba for me. They hire St. Capt? I think I will try Colgan too, since I have Saab 340 time too.

Space

 

[English]

Have Saab time, eh? Based on your posts above, I'd recommend going to Colgan. However, you mentioned avoiding USAir regionals. If that's still the case, try Shuttle America. Both companies have hired street captains in the past with Saab time.


If you really only care about the PIC turbine time, and nothing else like pay, QOL, maintenance, management/pilot relationships, etc., then Colgan, followed by Shuttle, will be your best bets, since you have Saab time.

 

[flap operator]

Mesaba does not hire street captains. Why don't you just be an FO first and earn your way through seniority to captain, like most of us are doing? Or is it street captain or bust for you?


FO

 

[English]

BTW, my reply was directed to Space Cowboy, who mentioned in an earlier post today that he had spent four years as an FO at an un-named regional airline.

 

[Lear70]

Way. Way, Waiittt, You were a street captain Lear?, It all becomes clear, uh huh huh huh, really though what does it matter a jet efis experience. We all know at Pinchnickel that a jet is the easiest plane to fly and an efis plane is the easiest of the jets. What is it they say? We should make the most money flying a piston and the second most flying a turboprop. Flying a jet is like study hall in high school. Give me a freakin' break!!!

If EFIS and FMS weren't important, then why did every street CA that had that experience have no trouble in the oral and sim while all the pinks went to guys without it? If flying the Saab was harder than the jet, then why the 70% bust rate for Saab CA to Jet CA prior to the hiring of street CA? Suuurrrre, the jet is easier to fly than the Saab, wonder what the senior Saab CA's who rolled the airplane upside down on a V1 cut or lost 1,000 feet of altitude on an approach stall on their checkride would say to that statement?

Why do you think EVERY operator out there who flies EFIS and FMS equipment lists "Previous EFIS and FMS experience a plus" on their job listings? Could it be, oh I don't know, that it saves the extra sim sessions for someone to get used to the glass?

Yes, this airplane is easy to fly, but then again the King Air was like a big C172, but as Lequip infers, it's not that difficult. Incidentally, I DO believe we rank right up there with attorneys and physicians... it's sad as a pilot, that you do not. Maybe your lack of self esteem is what is reflecting in your posts (which are ALL some of the most BITTER ramblings I've ever heard on this board).

 

[T-Gates]

All in good fun...

Hey, at least none of the street captains used the "Well, in the Saab we did it this way...." comment when they f*cked up in the RJ. As if it was a rational excuse. That got old after awhile. You just had to deal with the "Well on the 727......"