pinnacle hiring

[dondk]

XJ guys... Sorry about the thought or concept of you actually having some positive growth in '02.. I thought when the announcement of all 9E's saab's going over that was before the retirement of the A models. I do remember the furloughs at XJ and then the second time you furloughed as well.. My mistake and I am sorry I made that comment. While your pilot group is not growing, your ground operations are. I think I have heard almost doubling in size by the end of the year.

For the record, I do not have any positve thoughts about the negiotations in any way or form. I have flown with several of the union people directly involved with the negiotations and I can say I never got a warm and fuzzy feeling we are going to get anywhere near a industry leading contract. One even told me to lower my expectations so I would not be as disappointed.

I do think though that NWA is in the game to make money, regardless of the labor and the company the labor works for. I don't see them suddenly stopping regional jet's and finding a replacement that only the NWA pilot's will fly. Going to codeshares is not in NWA's best interest, they (NWA Mgmt) likes to call ALL the shot's. Those who work under the NWA game know exactly what I mean. Who cancelled most of our SIDA badge access in DTW? enough said with that.

Remember NWA was the last player into the regional jet game (other than 36 avro's), they still need to "catch up" to thier peer's in this field. The RJ's have a specific mission for NWA and they will stay until that mission is no longer required, just as the Saab's will stay and the DC-9's. Also remember NWA pilot's contract is first, they still need to pi$$ them off and whipsaw them before getting around to 9E. It will be an interesting 6 months or so.

I do think and expect to be b!tch slapped by NWA, I expect to see XJ grow and 9E stagnate. I even expect to see furloughs at 9E.

We have furloughed, guys have been displaced, the company came back for pay a year later, had the contract violated or interpeted by barney so many different ways and times.. I would not put it past them to try to find a way around the SEC filing. I just don't see them doing something "stupid" just to teach the pilot's a lesson. They will make us pay in other ways first.

 

[68pilot]

I hope you guys at PCL learned a lesson from the XJ guys about expectations. Three years of negotiations for a five percent raise for Captains.
Yikes.

 

[Lear70]

I hope you guys at PCL learned a lesson from the XJ guys about expectations. Three years of negotiations for a five percent raise for Captains.
Yikes.

Exactamundo... that's what I was talking about a few weeks ago on here and I feel for every XJ Captain who looked at all that and wished they hadn't paid ALPA dues (would have been a bigger overall raise including their measly "retro").

I keep waiting to hear about the regional carrier who sues ALPA national for allowing their MEC to sign a contract that didn't satisfy the major provisions of their polling. ALPA bears the legal responsibility to represent its pilots in the manner in which they are directed; they are therefore liable for any gross misrepresentation issues, including where they ignore the desires of the body politic and do their own thing in negotiations.

Here at PCL we do phone polling of the ENTIRE pilot group by a company called Wilson Polling. IF I'm still here at the end of contract negotiations and IF they bring us a contract that only gives a 5 or 10% raise for the Captains and 10 to 15% for the F/O's you can bet your money I'll be getting a bunch of other Captains together and filing a class action faster than ALPA could believe because I KNOW the majority of the pilots would have been demanding much more on the polling and that data would be usable in court.

Many of us have VERY high expectations, somewhere around a 30% raising 50% raise for F/O's over a four-year term (that's an increase from $18k a year starting pay to about $23,5k then up to $30k by the end of the term, 3rd year f/o from $25k now to about $40k), and an increase in CA pay of at least 20% initially and 35% over a four-year term (brings 1st year CA pay from $48k to about $57,6k and 5th year from about $58,5k to about $80k), plus at least a duty rig and an end to the reserve b.s. that's been going on here.

Those rates are less than Comair but somewhere I believe is reasonable and reachable here. I've also spoken with several union "officials" and they've said things similar to what Dondk posted and that scares the bejeesus out of me. But just as we're putting management on notice that we won't accept a sub-par contract, a group of us has been putting our MEC on notice that we won't stand for it. If a T.A. comes out that's anything less than above, there's a HUGE group of us ready to start recall elections in ALL the domiciles.

So far our negotiating team has shown us that won't be necessary, and our negotiating chair put out an article that they could DOUBLE our pay and benefits and it be only 1/2 of $0.01 per ASM cost increase which is easily affordable when their profit per ASM is around $0.11. He also told me he won't put out a T.A. that doesn't satisfy the majority of the Wilson Polling data, so I'm being relatively quiet for now... However, as negotiations drag on, the whipsaw begins, and tempers flair, I believe even more people will be drawn to our "millitant" side of the table.

Last contract that was signed here, the pilot group's motto was STMFD (Shut The Mutha Fu*ker Down). That group now represents only the top 250 pilots out of nearly 1,000 pilots but they still control the majority of the MEC seats and their ire has cooled to a point I'm uncomfortable with. I can only hope that the company does some really "Dumba*s" things to piss them off again so they return to their previous mantra.

p.s. My strike fund is at about $5,000 and I'm buying a lot of rental property cheaply right now so that, if need be, I can sustain myself for a looonnngggg time. I try and educate my fellow pilots on the need for some savings and a contingency plan but the F/O's just don't make enough to save anything unless they get a 2nd job (which is what I've been suggesting - I have one).

 

[T-Gates]

As for a GIA dude in the left seat.. close.. I don't think he passed just yet, but he is the first of a handful. The majority of the first wave of GIA people will going to the left seat in the next few months...

There are atleast 2 in the left seat right now done with IOE and thier fed rides....just an FYI

 

[cathal]

The only problem with Wilson polling is that those who are polled are answering the questions with nothing to lose. It is one thing to say you will strike for some combination of reasons. I fear you at 9E will find it is a different matter entirely when an actual ratification vote is before you.

The polling results at XJ told us we would have struck if our current contract was put in front of us. We did not strike. Instead, a certain amount of us did not realize that we would actually be satisfied with less than what we wanted or that we could be scared into believing that XJ might indeed shut its doors if we struck.

I feel bad for all of us at the NWA family table. Ma and PA are constantly asking us why we can't be more like the other other sibling at the dinner table, causing us to be more afraid of each other and causing us to fight more with ourselves than the one who are dishing out the portions.

I can't tell anyone to ask for less, but your expectations of a comair contract are unrealistic. Many of your siblings who say they want the sun, moon, and stars will be satisfied with something sub-orbital. Best of luck, with all the sincerity possible.

 

[PCL_128]

Lear70,

You and I agree on a lot of things, but sueing ALPA if you don't like the next contract is going a bit far.

We have an MEC resolution that guarantees that the contract will have to have membership ratification. The MEC doesn't vote on the contract, you and I and all the other pilots do. If a majority of the pilots vote YES, then you have no case in court. Polling data doesn't mean $hit in the end, only that final vote makes a difference. If you like the TA, vote yes. If you don't like the TA, vote no. It's a very simple system that doesn't allow the MEC to force a contract on us that we don't want. Yes, they can play up the TA at road shows, but the entire TA will be available for us to look at ourselves and make a decision before we vote. It just isn't reasonable to blame ALPA for a bad contract. Blame the pilots that voted yes.

That being said, although it isn't illegal for the MEC to bring a substandard TA for a vote, it is unethical in my opinion. If the MEC does bring us a substandard TA, I will be right there with you fighting for a recall. To be honest, I would like a recall of the MEC Chair right now before we get to section 6, but we don't have the votes to remove him as I'm sure you know.

We'll just have to wait and see what TA the MEC and negotiating committee bring us. Hopefully all of this worrying is without merit and the MEC sticks to the Wilson Polling data.

 

[dondk]

I have heard Comair +10%, I have heard Comair and no less...

I'd be surprised if we get Comair -10% and I am being realistic.

Lear70 did mention a "millitant" side of the pilot group, that is the side that hopefully will be vocal enough to keep the followers from signing a sub par contract. Also be loud enough to be all over our MEC if they start to flounder...

I think the MEC chair is up for re-election in '05.. Hopefully the LEC's will change and we can get some "new" blood into the negiotations.

 

[Lear70]

If you like the TA, vote yes. If you don't like the TA, vote no. It's a very simple system that doesn't allow the MEC to force a contract on us that we don't want.

Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple. The MEC controls what comes out in a TA. The MEC controls the negotiating committee, steers them into specific goals, then the negotiating committee tries to make those goals a reality.

If the MEC decides they don't want to see anything more than a 10% raise, then guess what... YOU'LL NEVER SEE MORE THAN 10% ON A T.A.! That's the reality that Mesaba learned - Wychor brought a POS T.A. to the table and then scared them into signing it. I just want to make sure our MEC knows what will happen if they do the same - complete and total revolution, baby!

We'll just have to wait and see what TA the MEC and negotiating committee bring us. Hopefully all of this worrying is without merit and the MEC sticks to the Wilson Polling data.

I hope you're right... Really, I do. I'd like the company to suffer as we have suffered, but not at the expense of all the other employees, and that's what a strike would mean (although the realistic side of me says there's no way we'll get anything decent without a strike).

I think the MEC chair is up for re-election in '05.. Hopefully the LEC's will change and we can get some "new" blood into the negiotations.

Yep. Just remember, the vote for WG was unanimous - that means anyone in office in MSP or DTW now was part of who voted him in (MEM elected completely different chairs and vice-chairs last year). If you don't want him back, make sure you vote someone else into the LEC chair and vice-chair in DTW next month... since MSP isn't up for vote, DTW is the only hope we've got. Question is, who is militant enough to take us through negotiations in the way we want but is also balanced enough to recognize the needs for the 5 different demographic groups that comprise our seniority list?

 

[dondk]

Yep. Just remember, the vote for WG was unanimous - that means anyone in office in MSP or DTW now was part of who voted him in (MEM elected completely different chairs and vice-chairs last year). If you don't want him back, make sure you vote someone else into the LEC chair and vice-chair in DTW next month... since MSP isn't up for vote, DTW is the only hope we've got. Question is, who is militant enough to take us through negotiations in the way we want but is also balanced enough to recognize the needs for the 5 different demographic groups that comprise our seniority list?

Could that be the reason they will not let you run for LEC? Job security amongst the MEC

It is tough to vote for a LEC rep... I believe one is millitant enough (write in), one was in office when WG was voted in, the final one I just don't know about.. Heard good and bad.

BTW.. who is runing for vice-chair in DTW? I thought DB held it until '05?

 

[Lear70]

DB does indeed hold the post until Feb '05; that election process will start some time in late November / early December - takes about two months to let the process take its course: notification to the pilot group of upcoming elections, submissions of willingness to serves, then nomination. Ballots should go out sometime around Christmas so everyone knows about 30 days out who's taking over in Feb.

Could that be the reason they will not let you run for LEC? Job security amongst the MEC

Probably. Funny how everything was supposed to happen in June... when I would have been elligible, then suddenly everything was postponed... until the exact small period of time I wasn't elligible to be nominated or run, OR vote. Then my domicile bypass gets rejected... coincidence? I think not.

Doesn't matter much, it's only for the interim term... I'll be back in DTW for the permanent vote effective February, so if things are going bad and people want me to do it, I'll get nominated again, and this time it would be for the 2-year permanent term.

As far as the people up for election go, you're right about the one who was in office when WG was voted in, the other candidate was nominated to the negotiating committee by WG himself; that pretty much leaves one choice if ousting WG is the goal and I don't think that's on his list of priorities either.

I'm just disappointed that none of the candidates up for the election will answer my call to put their views on the record so people will know who to vote for to best represent their goals...

 

[dondk]

As far as the people up for election go, you're right about the one who was in office when WG was voted in, the other candidate was nominated to the negotiating committee by WG himself; that pretty much leaves one choice if ousting WG is the goal and I don't think that's on his list of priorities either.

I'm just disappointed that none of the candidates up for the election will answer my call to put their views on the record so people will know who to vote for to best represent their goals...

Thanks for answering that lingering question... I think it would help some of the pilot group if they knew some of the information. Did not know WG brought him on board the comittee, but now more of the blanks are filled it. Too bad I had to go "outside" to get the answers, does not say much for the internal board.

I also found it odd no one responded to your post looking for answer's..

The only thing this time in DTW, the winner is not going to be elected by a "popularity" contest as it was last time.

 

[Lear70]

Actually, our negotiator was the MEC Secretary-Treasurer under WG. Forgot to mention that little jewel of info...

I haven't been up to DTW lately but one of the gentlemen has told me he's put flyers in v-files and another did that LAST time (he lost) so I'm assuming he'll do it again. The other is counting on momentum from previous popular work accomplished and word-of-mouth.

All of which I believe to be fairly worthless when no one will discuss the issues. No wonder our voter turnout sucks - half the voting population hasn't a CLUE what these guys will do if elected!!

I'm actually good friends with one of the candidates and on decent terms with another. The negotiator and I don't particularly get along, but that's a longer story. In any event, I agree with you; it's sad we have to go to outside boards to get answers to stuff, even though I use the same "handle" I do on our non-anonymous message board. Guess I don't really give a sh*t if what I believe is "popular" or not... Does that mean I have a bad attitude?

 

[dondk]

you know I found it odd that 2 of the 3 personally contacted me for a vote..
The other I have not seen since he was on a boat figuiring out what WG wanted (does not sit well with me personally)

hopefully we can get more than 60 ( I think that is what last time voted) to vote this time.. It is sad when less than 10% of the DTW pilots vote (last time)... If I remember right, the DTW guy won last time in MEM too.. does not say much for the candidates...

For what's it's worth.. I have always got the impression that your for the pilot's regardless if your views are PC or not.. Wish you were running in DTW, would make the decison easier...

 

[Lear70]

Thanks for the support... keep your eyes on our private board, things are getting interesting now that WG has claimed he never "denied" me council bypass (and I have his letter right here in my hands saying exactly that). Lying to the pilot group is never a good thing for a MEC Chair to do...

 

[xrayojilp1]

I heard an interesting rumour the other day. I know for a fact that Parker Davis is back to the line and I heard that upper managment is gunning for Mefford. They want a pro management stooge as the next Chief Pilot. What I heard was that the reason we have so many Captain vacanies now is so that they can give Tommy Palmer a captain slot. This is what they originally told him like 3 years ago, he was a CRJ captain at Comair before. Now supposedly they are scheming to bring him in as the next Chief Pilot.

 

[Seminole]

Check this out

Wow PCL MEC Chair losing it. The Lord's name in vain(vane sp?) twice. NOT GOOD. This letter was in response to LEAR 70 doing a little political debating. You will never see Lear70 losing it.....how come WG can't keep a cool head?
And "nobody cares what Lear70's interpretation of the by-laws say," OK but I wonder if ALPA National got their copy of this letter. Anyway read on..


MEM CA
Joined: 29 Sep 2002
Posts: 182

New postPosted: 27 Aug 2004 20:44 Post subject: Reply with quote


Jesus H. Christ!!!!

Read the g..d... letter!!!!!

Someone needs to say this.....it might as well be me!!!!

NOBODY CARES WHAT YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE BY LAWS IS!!

I received your letter. I did not know the answer. I contacted two of the top officers of the
international union. Both of these gentlemen gave me the same answer. They gave me the
reference in the by laws. I also contacted the Mesaba MEC and the Northwest MEC, all to
get an answer to your question.

If you don't like the interpretation of the by-laws that these two people gave me, take it up
with them.

This is not MY interpretation. It is the interpretation of the Air Line Pilots Association.

Further, contrary to your statement, I was specifically told by these officers that this was a
decision for the entire MEC and, lacking a voted upon policy, I could not allow your
request on my own authority. I thought I made this clear in my letter to you.

All you do is continually prattle on about YOUR interpretation....of ALPA By-Laws, of
pension law, or flight and duty regulations or whatever. Anyone who actually consults a
REAL expert and quotes them is wrong.

I give up. If you have a problem, file a protest with Duane Woerth. His address is:

Captain Duane Woerth
Air Line Pilots Association
535 Herndon Prkwy
Herndon, VA 20170

You don't need to send me a copy. This is my last word on this issue.

 

[dondk]

I heard an interesting rumour the other day. I know for a fact that Parker Davis is back to the line and I heard that upper managment is gunning for Mefford. They want a pro management stooge as the next Chief Pilot. What I heard was that the reason we have so many Captain vacanies now is so that they can give Tommy Palmer a captain slot. This is what they originally told him like 3 years ago, he was a CRJ captain at Comair before. Now supposedly they are scheming to bring him in as the next Chief Pilot.

I heard a similar rumor regarding our CP.. to take it one step further though.. RETIREMENT.. maybe by the end of the year .

They can give Mr Palmer anything they want.. as long as it is at the bottom of the sen list. Back 3+ years ago.. the former project manager I believe had a sen# and on some "rare" occassions flew the line.

The CA vacancies.. how about 30+ timing out in the next few months... walking away from the table only gave them 6-8 guys back on the line.. Get the faliure rate down to 15% or less and stop busting 30%+ guys on fed rides will also help the upgrades make it to the line.

 

[Seminole]

Check this out

Somebody e-mail this to me in late April. Read it closely. It will help you understand more......


We heard about the Richard Murphy little tatter, everyone wants to know what the hell is
the matter. Seems there was a little to much chatter, junior pilots gonna knock Wake off
the ladder.
So at Wake’s request, he’s divided this pilot group and created a mess. You don’t like
Richard Murphy, I guess? Cause he and the junior pilots won’t work for less?
Wake’s blown off Richard over a dozen times, now him and his cronies seek Murphy’s
demise. Everything you say is just a bunch of lies, at least Richard Murphy works hard and
tries.
That won’t fly, Murphy speaks for me, not this Wakefield guy. We are tired of Wake
cause he won’t even try, always selling us a big fat lie. Why? Cause Alpa National has him
hanging by his tie. We are the Mesa of Northwest in the industry eye. This time we will
get our piece of the pie.
Wake and Trenary have a little secret, it’s called a carrot on stick, recurrent is where they
leak it. Your ass is where they seek it.
75 jets are on the table, with a concessionaire label. We are tired of cleaning Trenary’s
stable. We are tired of reading your fable. You are not going to hang us from a gable with
a cable. You think we are not able?
Junior pilots have nothing to lose, Wake, you don’t fight for our current rules. You must
be confused, you think you gonna play us for a bunch of fools. Junior pilots gonna show
you and your management tools, we been kick for the last time in our jewels. Wake, we
can replace you if we choose, we have already lit that fuse, Richard Murphy gonna be
wearing your dirty shoes.
Can’t drop a trip or trip trade, now Wake wants you to drink his Kool-Aid. Junior pilots
just want to be paid, not looking for state and federal aid.
Wake, you have been given your chance, but we always have to drop our pants. We are
treated as if we our flying a Lance, this time we are taking a stance.
Wakefield Gordon has had his fifteen minutes of fame, Junior pilots think he is kind of
lame, maybe a little too tame. If you think your gonna rollover on us, your smoking Mary
Jane, tripping on window-payne, and doing too much nose caine. We don’t give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**
about you and your new job with Dwayne.
Wake if you think you and Dwayne are gonna sell us down the river, you are smoking
crack, shooting up smack. This junior pilot group will attack. That is a fact.
Junior pilots are coming to town, were gonna take you down, Richard Murphy gonna be
wearing your crown. This boy is like a blood hound.
We are tired of you and your pilot lawyer, our grievances disappear like Tom Sawyer.
Richard Murphy is our battleship destroyer.
You have already kick us in the chin, our kids dress like Huckberry Finn. This time junior
pilots gonna win, this new contract won’t be a sin, like management treating you like their
next of kin.
Junior pilots are gonna stand up tall, Richard Murphy is getting the call. This time Wake is
taking the fall, cause our butt’s are way too raw. We just want the respect of the guys
across the hall, instead of being treated like we broke the law.
Wake is like OPEC and the price of gasoline, it’s gonna be his contract with no Vaseline.
Wake has forgotten about the team, junior pilots are feeling a little mean,
hungry and lean, can’t afford to eat a butter bean.
Can’t call in honest, fatigue, or sick, Wake you are always sucking management’s dick.
Junior pilots all think your a prick, in the back room always turning a trick.
FOM more restrictive, take it with a smile, here is another memo for your file. We think it
should go to trial, but you won’t walk half a mile.
Junior pilots had to learn: extended, junior manned, mistrip with concern. Step down now
you have had your turn, you little worm.
Mistrip carries the same weight, as checking in late. We are not taking your growth bait.
Wake you have met your fate.
We don’t like what you say, you must be in bed with Kay? We need a slam dunk like Dr.
J. We are gonna take you down, I think in May. Is that OK? Cause you got no clout, like a
stained shirt without Shout. The LEC’s are gonna vote you out.
This ain’t meant to be funny, we are gonna shut the doors if we don’t see the money. We
want Richard Murphy, not a yellow belly bunny, walking around like Trenary’s little
honey.
Richard Murphy speaks for me, yea he has got the contract key. Wakefield thinks were all
blind and can’t see, that Alpa gonna sting us like a bubble-bee. Pissing on us like a dog on
a tree. Paying big fees, everyone is down on there knees and they don’t even say please.
Wake you have had your fun, what’s it like being Trenary’s new son. Junior pilots know
Alpa eats it’s young. You won’t stand behind anyone that don’t make you come. Your
gonna cause us to loose a ton. Do you think we are all dumb? We think you are a bum.
We think Richard Murphy has already won. Like the American colors he don’t run.
JH and TL are on board, Blacksheep too. GB will be with us in just a few.
BBs will play ball or they are through.
DD knows the plan, so does the MSP Man. We got one MEM fan. Vote out the MEC,
we think we can.
Our new leaders don’t swallow, never will they wallow. They are definitely not hollow.
This is all for now,
there will be more to follow.................

 

[Seminole]

The Bottom line

If the DTW pilots want a new MEC then they will vote Richard Murphy for LEC.
It will divide the pilot group. Guess what???

They will not let that happen.

Voter turnout if RM was allowed to run would be 60-70%, I think.

DTW is the biggest base. You add a third of MSP and a quarter of MEM and you got a new MEC after the recall. That is what it is all about.

They have knock the legs out from under RM before and they will (are) doing it again. He is a real threat. They know it and have taken smart steps to prevent him from dividing the pilot group. Guess what again????? Let the members decide if they want him as LEC and then will know for sure if this pilot group is divided or not. If he loses then we will know and so be it. If he wins....look for a recall of the MEC.

 

[PCL_128]

You might not want to post Rich's full name on this public board. This isn't really the place.