pinnacle hiring

[xrayojilp1]

Guys,

I've been at Pinnacle for too long now and I've flown with plenty of Gulfstream pilots. I haven't had any problems, most people welcome them as people and pilots. There are issues that come up because of extreme low time, but overall the program seems to work OK for us. Why do we have to hire so many low time guys though? There is some sort of agreement obviously and kickbacks notwithstanding, Pinnacle is simply the worst regional airline to work for.

Sure Mesa makes less and Mesaba and others don't have the growth, but if you look at the way we are treated by managment and overall quality of life at PCL, we are the worst. Most guys who have other airline experience or who are still early in their career do not stay long at PCL. They do not tolerate it at all. They don't want to have to worry about being fired for getting sick and worse.

In fact Pinnacle is hiring at this time, but you will certainly not be upgrading any time soon, and if you did get one of these proposed new hire captain slots you would have to realize that its not because things are moving fast. Its because we have HUNDREDs of First Officers who have the seniority but not the time to upgrade (3000 hours with 500 in type at the company or 3500)you would not get off reserve for at least five years. Pinnacle already has over 100 jets and we are only getting 129. Yes there are options but if you know what just happened with negotiations and you realize that we are six months from officially starting our 'bargaining process' you will realize that those options are simply carrots for them to hold in front of us. Our pilot group is unified and furious at management for the way we are treated and we will get an industry leading contract after our strike (which is probably 3 and a half years away) Until then you have to realize that managment will attack and abuse its pilot group as has never been attempted before in this industry.

Expect ten days off for the next five years and reserve, you will fly every day but not get many hours. Also expect very soon that managment will start to build schedules that stagger days off so you never have more than 2 days off in a row. Don't get me wrong, it has always been like this to some extent but they will start to do this intentionally, as they have at times in the past.

Do you have an interview here? Sure show up and get the experience, but for god sakes unless you are really in dire straits you would be doing yourself and your family a hugh favor by turning the job down. If you do take the job expect the worst training and the highest failure rate in the industry (some of this is due to low time). You are risking throwing away your entire career for one crappy job. Also realize this isn't just the ramblings of one disgruntled guy, I'm also speaking for many furloughed pilots, experienced guys who have come to Pinnacle after years of experience with other regionals and/or majors. I have never talked to anyone who did not agree that we are the worst regional in this industry.

Sure that CRJ is a shiny cool jet, but I hope that is enough for you. Whatever you are looking for, Pinnacle ain't it.

_________________________________________________________________

P.S. If you guys are interested in a contract update: Our managment approached our MEC about 3 months ago and asked us to start negotiations early. They said they were interested in completing the negotiations process at the earliest possible opportunity (for the sake of furthur growth). As you may have heard managment broke off negotiations a few days ago. I have several friends who are in the LEC's and one who was actually there. Apparently they started on the training section, needless to say they made absolutely no progress and after about 5 sessions on this section managment said basically, either agree to everything we propose by 1800 or the talks are over. What did they propose you may ask? Was it somewhere in between the cheapest alternative proposed by managment and the improvements over the current contract? No!, with arms folded, managment demanded that we roll back every protection offered by our current contract(believe me there aren't many) and basically bend over. Our guys claim publicly to be bewildered by this episode, but its understandable based on our current management.

They wanted to waste three months of our time, get the attention of our negotiators and union officers, get them in a conference room with suits and ties, lean across the table, and say F U! We hear the message loud and clear and you will never find a more unified and a more militant pilot group.

Airline negotiations at their worst! Yep, expect a long dirty three years and a long strike!! Industry leading contract or shut the doors!!!

 

[Lequip]

Guys,

I've been at Pinnacle for too long now and I've flown with plenty of Gulfstream pilots. I haven't had any problems, most people welcome them as people and pilots. There are issues that come up because of extreme low time, but overall the program seems to work OK for us. Why do we have to hire so many low time guys though? There is some sort of agreement obviously and kickbacks notwithstanding, Pinnacle is simply the worst regional airline to work for.

Sure Mesa makes less and Mesaba and others don't have the growth, but if you look at the way we are treated by managment and overall quality of life at PCL, we are the worst. Most guys who have other airline experience or who are still early in their career do not stay long at PCL. They do not tolerate it at all. They don't want to have to worry about being fired for getting sick and worse.

In fact Pinnacle is hiring at this time, but you will certainly not be upgrading any time soon, and if you did get one of these proposed new hire captain slots you would have to realize that its not because things are moving fast. Its because we have HUNDREDs of First Officers who have the seniority but not the time to upgrade (3000 hours with 500 in type at the company or 3500)you would not get off reserve for at least five years. Pinnacle already has over 100 jets and we are only getting 129. Yes there are options but if you know what just happened with negotiations and you realize that we are six months from officially starting our 'bargaining process' you will realize that those options are simply carrots for them to hold in front of us. Our pilot group is unified and furious at management for the way we are treated and we will get an industry leading contract after our strike (which is probably 3 and a half years away) Until then you have to realize that managment will attack and abuse its pilot group as has never been attempted before in this industry.

Expect ten days off for the next five years and reserve, you will fly every day but not get many hours. Also expect very soon that managment will start to build schedules that stagger days off so you never have more than 2 days off in a row. Don't get me wrong, it has always been like this to some extent but they will start to do this intentionally, as they have at times in the past.

Do you have an interview here? Sure show up and get the experience, but for god sakes unless you are really in dire straits you would be doing yourself and your family a hugh favor by turning the job down. If you do take the job expect the worst training and the highest failure rate in the industry (some of this is due to low time). You are risking throwing away your entire career for one crappy job. Also realize this isn't just the ramblings of one disgruntled guy, I'm also speaking for many furloughed pilots, experienced guys who have come to Pinnacle after years of experience with other regionals and/or majors. I have never talked to anyone who did not agree that we are the worst regional in this industry.

Sure that CRJ is a shiny cool jet, but I hope that is enough for you. Whatever you are looking for, Pinnacle ain't it.

_________________________________________________________________

P.S. If you guys are interested in a contract update: Our managment approached our MEC about 3 months ago and asked us to start negotiations early. They said they were interested in completing the negotiations process at the earliest possible opportunity (for the sake of furthur growth). As you may have heard managment broke off negotiations a few days ago. I have several friends who are in the LEC's and one who was actually there. Apparently they started on the training section, needless to say they made absolutely no progress and after about 5 sessions on this section managment said basically, either agree to everything we propose by 1800 or the talks are over. What did they propose you may ask? Was it somewhere in between the cheapest alternative proposed by managment and the improvements over the current contract? No!, with arms folded, managment demanded that we roll back every protection offered by our current contract(believe me there aren't many) and basically bend over. Our guys claim publicly to be bewildered by this episode, but its understandable based on our current management.

They wanted to waste three months of our time, get the attention of our negotiators and union officers, get them in a conference room with suits and ties, lean across the table, and say F U! We hear the message loud and clear and you will never find a more unified and a more militant pilot group.

Airline negotiations at their worst! Yep, expect a long dirty three years and a long strike!! Industry leading contract or shut the doors!!!

Now there is a good one! The vast majority of pilots at Pinnacle are gulfstream pukes or former PFTers. Close the door my a$$, you guys will sell out in a heartbeat. PA-LEEZ!!!

 

[Justino]

Man will SOME of you people just grow up, you are acting like a bunch of immature complainers who are pissed that people did not follow in "your allmighty" footsteps. NEWS flash to complainers----PFT, GULFSTREAM ETC... PEOPLE MAKE CHOICES AND JUST BECAUSE THEY DID NOT EARN THEIR FLIGHT TIME THE WAY YOU DID DOES NOT MEAN THEY are BAD. If anything those that critize others are they themselves ignorant and self serving.

complainers out their reagrding PFT, Riddle and ALL the other schools ,,,blah blah blah.....big deal, get over it and be greatful for what you have, not how others got what they have. A major turnoff to aviation is listening to guys and gals cry about PFT and flying college and waa waa waaa....


Sell out this and that... and your not good enough... and you make more money then me... and I work harder then you. For F sakes man Half the posts on this site are people just crying about $ and other airlines. YOU DONT LIKE YOUR $$$ OR YOUR JOB GO WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE... TO GOOD FOR THAT.... GO COLLECT UNEMPLOYMENT.... Or STILL TO GOOD PAL? DEAL WITH IT....

YOUR JOB IS TO FLY AND IF YOU DONT LIKE TO FLY WITH OTHER PEOPLE CAUSE THEY DID NOT COLLECT 5 INCHES OF ICE AT 3AM OR THEY PFT TO GET EXPERIENCE OR THEY WENT TO A GREAT COLLEGE FOR FLYING AND YOU DID NOT DUE TO CHANCE OR $ OR CHOICE THAT DOES NOT GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT TO DEMOTE OTHER PEOPLE FOR THEIR CHOICES. IF YOU THINK YOU SHOULD OR THAT YOU ARE RIGHT I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU CAUSE GUESS WHAT, YOUR A VERY VERY SMALL MAJORITY AND YES THATS ENOUGH TO TARNISH THE REST OF US PILOTS WHO LOVE OUR JOBS AND DONT MIND FLYING WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT FLYING BACKGROUNDS.

with that all said I am sure some of you will reply and complain and say I dont know what I talking about since I dont have as much time as you or that I suck and on and on and on. It will be no surprise as such replys only come from a minority and could never attempt to change my understanding of flying and the people who love doing it.

Fly safe,
Justino.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Does Pinnacle happen to have a domicile in SLC?

 

[Justino]

Thanks

Good luck at SUP !!!! Thanks for the service

 

[dondk]

This is a pitiful thread...

Pinnacle is a regioinal, just like the other dozen or more out there. Once people realize we are a regional then the whole QOL, pay, and schedules are understandable.

PFT.. this is BS too.. Name the top regionals or better yet the largest regionals and they were ALL PFT at one time or another. Most of them changed thier ways in the late 90's. Many of the top or larger regionals have taken pilot's from programs akin to GIA, but they were called "bridge programs" or something else. Some other regionals still "pref" hire from some college's, but that is okay for some.

Being at PCL for better than 3 years now.. most and I mean 98% of the GIA pilot's are good pilots. The 2% are the problem children ALL airlines have regardless if they PFT'd or flight instructed to a job. 98% of the Captains have no problems with GIA folks either, the 2% falls into the same problem Captain category.

As for a GIA dude in the left seat.. close.. I don't think he passed just yet, but he is the first of a handful. The majority of the first wave of GIA people will going to the left seat in the next few months...

We will still grow beyond 129? My money is yes.. remember they (our management) have the carrot's and to keep the lower 1/2 of the seniority list happy I'd guess more jet's. Heck we are making too much money, does anyone think that PCL management wants to give that up anytime soon?

If they can keep us at our lousy contract longer and build our fleet they just keep making more money, why not do that?

As for failure rates.. those who have been here long enough have seen the failure rates for FO's go from 75% down to 15%. Captains were 10% and now lingers in the 40% range. When the failure rates go up the FSDO makes daily "raids" in MEM. Ask how many FAA dudes are crawling around MEM these days? This is beacuse we are growing and the mom and pop operation in MEM still stays the same. Management thinks they still have a 250 pilot operation and everyone should be happy they are employed.


As for working here.. remember my opening statement's.. we are a regional, if that is what or who you want to work for.. then you could do better and you could do worse than Pinncale. Those hired today will hold 14 or better off as a FO. Those looking for Captain (new hire OR quick upgrade) will see no more than 10 days off and reserve for the next 5 years. REGARDLESS if we get more jet's or not..

 

[another cfii]

It always come down to this. Every regional airlines have their good and bad sides, some has more good than bad sides, and every regional airlines have their dark history, including PCL.

I was fortunate enough to join PCL while in the beginning of the current bloom, and although it's my first 121 job, i don't take things for granted. I know there're lots of qualified pilots out there that would do my job for less money. With that said, I am proud to support our MEC in the ongoing negotiation. Most newbie like me are not familiar with contract negotiation, and our MEC does spend the time trying to communicate with all pilots with emails, personal contacts, phone calls.

Just a few days ago, our pilot group received news that prelim negotiation broke off, and with a logistical move by our CEO, most of us are pretty pissed and our group has shown what it takes to be unified. Now, we need to support more than each other. I am asking all regional pilots, pilot to pilot, it is now time to help support us with our fight. We need this in order to fight for a better future for all of us.

 

[xrayojilp1]

I would bet serious money that we won't get more jets, in fact I'm sure that we will lose some. The games have indeed begun. You can look forward to being whipsawed for the next 3-4 years. Northwest would have to be completely out of their minds to give us more airplanes. There is just too much uncertainty. The last of the 129 will come right at the beginning of official contract negotiations, this is not coincidence. Of course our managment will act like any other regional and will not be trying to bargain in good faith, but . . I'm sure what Northwest is planning is to start giving crj's to other operators that already have them (ie not Mesaba), can you think of a better way to harm unity and morale during negotiations? They will say, see those pretty crj's over there in Northwest paint, those are being flown by Mesa. We didn't get them because you guys won't sell out. Hell our own CEO even admitted in the past he does not think we will grow any furthur. Its just too much of a risk to have one hugh regional when you can have 3 or more and whipsaw them against each other. I would even expect managment to take away a significant number of 'our' 129. After all we don't own them, they belong to Northwest. I figure an optimal size airline that Northwest would go for is around 100 airplanes, this is in line with what we were always told by our evil managment. I for one believe this for a change. All the planes we are getting now past 100 are just a bargaining tool and they WILL be taken away. People that we are hiring now are furlough fodder, BELIEVE IT. They are not hiring you as a pilot they are hiring you so that they can furlough you and say, see look at this poor guy on furlough, he's there because you won't sell out.

I certainly hope that we do not cave in, yes there are some PFT'er and GIA guys here, and I don't see what that has to do with voting on a contract, but whatever dude. As for you dondk, you say PCL is like any other regional? Dude what are you smoking and how can I get some? Be seeing U.

 

[fly4ever]

quote from dondk:


"We will still grow beyond 129? My money is yes.. remember they (our management) have the carrot's and to keep the lower 1/2 of the seniority list happy I'd guess more jet's. Heck we are making too much money, does anyone think that PCL management wants to give that up anytime soon?"

DREAM ON! Your management has NO carrots. Only NWA has the carrots and tells their regional feeders how and when to dangle them. The NWA process of negotiations is so cut and dry you can predict every move that management makes with near 100% accuracy. At least PinchNickel is up to speed. It's going to be a long haul for your group just like it was for XJ and you can bet your management has been saving up that "revenue" for the more lean years ahead. Your fight hasn't even started yet.

Best of luck

 

[norskman2]

Does Pinnacle happen to have a domicile in SLC?

Are you thinking Skywest maybe? PCL bases are MSP, DTW, MEM.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Are you thinking Skywest maybe? PCL bases are MSP, DTW, MEM.

Actually, I work on the ramp for SkyWest. Just wondering what my other options were for regionals out of SLC. Don't wanna hijack the thread though, so those that have info can PM me.

Pinnacle doesn't seem to have the info on their website.

 

[dondk]

I'm sure what Northwest is planning is to start giving crj's to other operators that already have them (ie not Mesaba), can you think of a better way to harm unity and morale during negotiations? They will say, see those pretty crj's over there in Northwest paint, those are being flown by Mesa. We didn't get them because you guys won't sell out. Hell our own CEO even admitted in the past he does not think we will grow any furthur. Its just too much of a risk to have one hugh regional when you can have 3 or more and whipsaw them against each other. I would even expect managment to take away a significant number of 'our' 129. After all we don't own them, they belong to Northwest. I figure an optimal size airline that Northwest would go for is around 100 airplanes, this is in line with what we were always told by our evil managment. I for one believe this for a change. All the planes we are getting now past 100 are just a bargaining tool and they WILL be taken away. People that we are hiring now are furlough fodder, BELIEVE IT. They are not hiring you as a pilot they are hiring you so that they can furlough you and say, see look at this poor guy on furlough, he's there because you won't sell out.

1... NO other regional that is NOT already a NW regional can get jet's.. It is part of the NWA pilot's SCOPE. NWA MEC has to ACCEPT another regional. This has been discussed many times before, MESA (or any regional) cannot suddenly get jet's unless NWA MEC agree's... The only other player in the CRJ deal is XJ... Will they get jet's? I would think they will too.. It will take them time to ramp up to start taking delivery. SO.... IF NWA wants more CRJ's on the property.... SOMEONE has to start to ramp up to accept them. That someone has to be either Mainline or XJ. If you don't see that start anytime soon you then have two choices...

a... NWA is not planning on taking anymore than 129 jets (unlikely)
b... 9E will go above 129 until one of the above gets a program in place

2... Read the IPO, I know it is long and boring, but it has been filed with the SEC so it is binding... we are "guaranteed" 129 jet's, under certain circumstances they can be reduced. Those circumstances are.. Work stoppage (self help, that should be a few years away)

3... Does anyone think PT has a clue what is going on? Eagan pulls the strings and everyone knows it. All PT does is go around picking up awards and doing PR for the company, nothing else, nothing more.

If 9E should suddenly stop getting jets before #129 or return some a SEC filing will be done. We will know it is happening well before it actually happens. Remember the goal of making us public was to make money, it is also in a small way funding the NWA pilot's retirement fund. Do you really think NWA management wants to see us lose money or shrink? Then they will have to come up with the funds to put into the retirement account. Look at our revenue, do you think NWA wants to see that shrink to? Something has to pay for those 129 jet's? Most companies do not put a company out to public offering to fail. If anything, NWA would look to sell us before taking major losses on the books.

SO, we are back to whipsawing... What would be a better way to whipsaw? Maybe go "above" the 129 jet's (those are "free") and then play games with the pilot groups at that point. They can play musical jet's once your outside the scope of the SEC filiing. What would be a better way to whipsaw a group of pilot's? You have the lower 50% of our company with a mix of FO's and some "quick upgrade" Captains. If the lower 50% wants to ever see a left seat they need to see more jet's or some of the top 50% to move on to bigger and better places. Take any number of jet's (above the 129) and play the carrot and whipsaw game to get a contract management wants. You have a motivator for our pilot group for contract negiotations. Remember how our last contract was signed (no growth for some time and a promise to grow)

Lets go one step further... there are some 50-70 jets that have had the options excercised. A delivery schedule was "leaked" a while back showing deliveries through Dec '05. I have no delusions that 9E will get all the jets, I also doubt we will get more than maybe another 20 or so.

I do think those hired above #1000 are pure furlough fodder, I think those pilots above #550 will be motivated to find resolution with a contract for either Captain or a better lifestyles. Especially if the airlines rebound in the next 2-3 years (amount of time it may take to sign a new contract) for those guys to get the left seat and move on (ala Mesa style)

DREAM ON! Your management has NO carrots. Only NWA has the carrots and tells their regional feeders how and when to dangle them. The NWA process of negotiations is so cut and dry you can predict every move that management makes with near 100% accuracy.

I guess the XJ guys saw the "return" of those 6 Avro's before it happened too... That was not "cut and dry" but a d@mn good carrot and a low blow to the XJ guy's. The difference between XJ and 9E this time is that 9E's growth will come to a screeching halt then stagnate while contract negiotations go on. XJ, while in contract negiotations took all of 9E's Saab's, so you guys actually had growth during your negiotations. Then again your company went out and bought Big Sky (as a potential whipsaw (in house no less)). 9E management cannot really do that due to the public nature of the company and how the SEC filing was done, actually it can be done, but not as "cut and dry" as it was with XJ.

I agree NWA calls the shot's, but I don't think anyone has a clue what they are thinking right now.

 

[alrightythen23]

The difference between XJ and 9E this time is that 9E's growth will come to a screeching halt then stagnate while contract negiotations go on. XJ, while in contract negiotations took all of 9E's Saab's, so you guys actually had growth during your negiotations.

Ummm......get your facts straight. Mesaba lost most of the A models they had so there was no GROWTH at all even though they got Pinnacles B- pieces of crap.

 

[flap operator]

Dondk -

Mesaba might have taken the last remaining Pinnacle saabs... but WE DID NOT GROW. We gained airplanes, yes. But we did not grow. We retired A model saabs and furloughed all at the same time the PCL Bs came on the property. With so many CRJs replacing saabs in the early days of MSP and DTW our ASMs were down, even when we took on the ex PNCL saabs.

As far as whipsaw... HERE IT IS. It's only beginning and it will get ugly. I hope that those of you at PNCL learn from the senior dudes who were at Express II in MSP in the last downturn. I also hope you were paying attention during XJs turn at the whipping fence. It's really scary to be on the receiving end of the b*tch slapping and even more scary when you don't think it will happen to you.

Mesaba Holdings was a publicly traded company... just like PNCL holdings is. They went right out and bought Big Sky and changed the holdings company name to MAIR Holdings. What's so different that PNCL couldn't go out and buy another certificate? I hope that doesn't happen to you guys. You're lucky in the sense you're bound to the SEC and they can't really take the planes away. YOu're right the avro was a low blow and complete whipsaw tactics at the end of the 3 year drama. I don't think anyone saw that coming...

Your comment regarding PCL being so much of a revenue stream and why would they shrink us? BECAUSE THEY CAN! Mesaba has always been profitable for NWA and we send a lot of $$$ their way. They hold more of a stake in MAIR than they do of PNCL. It didn't make sense to shrink XJ to the size we are now... but they did. It didn't make sense to devalue our stock SO MUCH after being split at least one time... but they did. So again, don't be surprised if something like that happens at PNCL.

The point is that NWA is SMART. They drive a hard bargain and always win in some form or the other. I wouldn't be surprised if they come up with a crazy out of left field scheme to aid in their whipsawing tactics.

The other point is that no matter what bad blood exists between XJ and PNCL we will return the favor and support you provided us when it is your turn.

Best of luck,

FO

 

[Ace McCoy]

Umm..No

Dodnk almost had me thinking he knew some things until he said Mesaba grew during contract negotiations by getting 9E Saabs. Wow, no that is not the case. We had almost 80 saabs before getting the 9E saabs and now after getting those...we have 56. Fabulous growth wouldn't you say?

Also I'm not sure I have ever heard that only 9E and XJ can be regionals for NWA. The only scope restriction I'm aware of is that only XJ pilot can fly the 36 (now 35, thanks super mechanic) Avros. Besides there already is a third carrier, American Eagle out of LA and Boston.

Dodnk, good luck to you and it's good to see you have a positive attitude about negotiations but it could be a hard fall for you in the next couple of years when you see what NWA is capable of.

 

[flap operator]

Ace - if you read deep into the scope there is language that says the NWA MEC must approve all new codeshare partners and basically says that PCL and XJ are the only airlines to operate as "NWA Airlink." Eagle at LAX is not an airlink operation (neither is Pacific Island Airlines even though they call themselves an Airlink). Eagle is only a codeshare operation much like DL, CO, AS and the rest of them are.


FO

 

[DTWFO]

It is nice to see that there are others at Pinnacle that share my feelings towards unity and this contract. I've been here two years and during that time the company has done so many things to abuse this pilot group; and I hope no one forgets that when all these games start. I will NEVER forget the things they have done to me and the only way for me to forgive them is with a great contract. They can drag these negotiations out as long as they want....there will be an impass eventually and at that time I'd rather see Pinnacle out of business than carry on the way it is now. I think the company has underestimated the militant nature of the pilot group that they have helped to create.

 

[FN FAL]

Ace - if you read deep into the scope there is language that says the NWA MEC must approve all new codeshare partners and basically says that PCL and XJ are the only airlines to operate as "NWA Airlink." Eagle at LAX is not an airlink operation (neither is Pacific Island Airlines even though they call themselves an Airlink). Eagle is only a codeshare operation much like DL, CO, AS and the rest of them are.


FO

So what protection is that? All they have to do is decide not to have "Northwest Airlink" anymore and just use code shares. They could call the new codeshares "Northwest Skylink". Who would know the difference?

 

[flap operator]

The difference between a codeshare and an Airlink carrier is that they buy all the airlink seats and then they market and sell our seats. They buy all the fuel for the CRJs and Avros. They do so many more things with an airlink than they do with a codeshare. I never said we were protected... the NWA pilots could very well make changes to their contract to not provide that exclusivity to us. One thing is certain though... NWA wouldn't have the control or the financial benefits of PNCL and XJ merely as codeshares, as they do with as Airlink partners.

FO

 

[xrayojilp1]

Dondk, Some good research, I hope you are right, but you have to know that NWA and PCL have lawyers working nearly around the clock trying to figure ways around this stuff, legal or not.

DTWFO, I feel the exact same way, I will never forget some of the crap pulled on us by our @#$%$ managment. I have absolutely no loyalty to this company anymore even though I have been here for quite some time, I almost hope that we do just shut the doors. A great contract is not enough, managment has always shown total disregard for it anyway.