pinnacle hiring

[MarineGrunt]

Are you thinking Skywest maybe? PCL bases are MSP, DTW, MEM.

Actually, I work on the ramp for SkyWest. Just wondering what my other options were for regionals out of SLC. Don't wanna hijack the thread though, so those that have info can PM me.

Pinnacle doesn't seem to have the info on their website.

 

[dondk]

I'm sure what Northwest is planning is to start giving crj's to other operators that already have them (ie not Mesaba), can you think of a better way to harm unity and morale during negotiations? They will say, see those pretty crj's over there in Northwest paint, those are being flown by Mesa. We didn't get them because you guys won't sell out. Hell our own CEO even admitted in the past he does not think we will grow any furthur. Its just too much of a risk to have one hugh regional when you can have 3 or more and whipsaw them against each other. I would even expect managment to take away a significant number of 'our' 129. After all we don't own them, they belong to Northwest. I figure an optimal size airline that Northwest would go for is around 100 airplanes, this is in line with what we were always told by our evil managment. I for one believe this for a change. All the planes we are getting now past 100 are just a bargaining tool and they WILL be taken away. People that we are hiring now are furlough fodder, BELIEVE IT. They are not hiring you as a pilot they are hiring you so that they can furlough you and say, see look at this poor guy on furlough, he's there because you won't sell out.

1... NO other regional that is NOT already a NW regional can get jet's.. It is part of the NWA pilot's SCOPE. NWA MEC has to ACCEPT another regional. This has been discussed many times before, MESA (or any regional) cannot suddenly get jet's unless NWA MEC agree's... The only other player in the CRJ deal is XJ... Will they get jet's? I would think they will too.. It will take them time to ramp up to start taking delivery. SO.... IF NWA wants more CRJ's on the property.... SOMEONE has to start to ramp up to accept them. That someone has to be either Mainline or XJ. If you don't see that start anytime soon you then have two choices...

a... NWA is not planning on taking anymore than 129 jets (unlikely)
b... 9E will go above 129 until one of the above gets a program in place

2... Read the IPO, I know it is long and boring, but it has been filed with the SEC so it is binding... we are "guaranteed" 129 jet's, under certain circumstances they can be reduced. Those circumstances are.. Work stoppage (self help, that should be a few years away)

3... Does anyone think PT has a clue what is going on? Eagan pulls the strings and everyone knows it. All PT does is go around picking up awards and doing PR for the company, nothing else, nothing more.

If 9E should suddenly stop getting jets before #129 or return some a SEC filing will be done. We will know it is happening well before it actually happens. Remember the goal of making us public was to make money, it is also in a small way funding the NWA pilot's retirement fund. Do you really think NWA management wants to see us lose money or shrink? Then they will have to come up with the funds to put into the retirement account. Look at our revenue, do you think NWA wants to see that shrink to? Something has to pay for those 129 jet's? Most companies do not put a company out to public offering to fail. If anything, NWA would look to sell us before taking major losses on the books.

SO, we are back to whipsawing... What would be a better way to whipsaw? Maybe go "above" the 129 jet's (those are "free") and then play games with the pilot groups at that point. They can play musical jet's once your outside the scope of the SEC filiing. What would be a better way to whipsaw a group of pilot's? You have the lower 50% of our company with a mix of FO's and some "quick upgrade" Captains. If the lower 50% wants to ever see a left seat they need to see more jet's or some of the top 50% to move on to bigger and better places. Take any number of jet's (above the 129) and play the carrot and whipsaw game to get a contract management wants. You have a motivator for our pilot group for contract negiotations. Remember how our last contract was signed (no growth for some time and a promise to grow)

Lets go one step further... there are some 50-70 jets that have had the options excercised. A delivery schedule was "leaked" a while back showing deliveries through Dec '05. I have no delusions that 9E will get all the jets, I also doubt we will get more than maybe another 20 or so.

I do think those hired above #1000 are pure furlough fodder, I think those pilots above #550 will be motivated to find resolution with a contract for either Captain or a better lifestyles. Especially if the airlines rebound in the next 2-3 years (amount of time it may take to sign a new contract) for those guys to get the left seat and move on (ala Mesa style)

DREAM ON! Your management has NO carrots. Only NWA has the carrots and tells their regional feeders how and when to dangle them. The NWA process of negotiations is so cut and dry you can predict every move that management makes with near 100% accuracy.

I guess the XJ guys saw the "return" of those 6 Avro's before it happened too... That was not "cut and dry" but a d@mn good carrot and a low blow to the XJ guy's. The difference between XJ and 9E this time is that 9E's growth will come to a screeching halt then stagnate while contract negiotations go on. XJ, while in contract negiotations took all of 9E's Saab's, so you guys actually had growth during your negiotations. Then again your company went out and bought Big Sky (as a potential whipsaw (in house no less)). 9E management cannot really do that due to the public nature of the company and how the SEC filing was done, actually it can be done, but not as "cut and dry" as it was with XJ.

I agree NWA calls the shot's, but I don't think anyone has a clue what they are thinking right now.

 

[alrightythen23]

The difference between XJ and 9E this time is that 9E's growth will come to a screeching halt then stagnate while contract negiotations go on. XJ, while in contract negiotations took all of 9E's Saab's, so you guys actually had growth during your negiotations.

Ummm......get your facts straight. Mesaba lost most of the A models they had so there was no GROWTH at all even though they got Pinnacles B- pieces of crap.

 

[flap operator]

Dondk -

Mesaba might have taken the last remaining Pinnacle saabs... but WE DID NOT GROW. We gained airplanes, yes. But we did not grow. We retired A model saabs and furloughed all at the same time the PCL Bs came on the property. With so many CRJs replacing saabs in the early days of MSP and DTW our ASMs were down, even when we took on the ex PNCL saabs.

As far as whipsaw... HERE IT IS. It's only beginning and it will get ugly. I hope that those of you at PNCL learn from the senior dudes who were at Express II in MSP in the last downturn. I also hope you were paying attention during XJs turn at the whipping fence. It's really scary to be on the receiving end of the b*tch slapping and even more scary when you don't think it will happen to you.

Mesaba Holdings was a publicly traded company... just like PNCL holdings is. They went right out and bought Big Sky and changed the holdings company name to MAIR Holdings. What's so different that PNCL couldn't go out and buy another certificate? I hope that doesn't happen to you guys. You're lucky in the sense you're bound to the SEC and they can't really take the planes away. YOu're right the avro was a low blow and complete whipsaw tactics at the end of the 3 year drama. I don't think anyone saw that coming...

Your comment regarding PCL being so much of a revenue stream and why would they shrink us? BECAUSE THEY CAN! Mesaba has always been profitable for NWA and we send a lot of $$$ their way. They hold more of a stake in MAIR than they do of PNCL. It didn't make sense to shrink XJ to the size we are now... but they did. It didn't make sense to devalue our stock SO MUCH after being split at least one time... but they did. So again, don't be surprised if something like that happens at PNCL.

The point is that NWA is SMART. They drive a hard bargain and always win in some form or the other. I wouldn't be surprised if they come up with a crazy out of left field scheme to aid in their whipsawing tactics.

The other point is that no matter what bad blood exists between XJ and PNCL we will return the favor and support you provided us when it is your turn.

Best of luck,

FO

 

[Ace McCoy]

Umm..No

Dodnk almost had me thinking he knew some things until he said Mesaba grew during contract negotiations by getting 9E Saabs. Wow, no that is not the case. We had almost 80 saabs before getting the 9E saabs and now after getting those...we have 56. Fabulous growth wouldn't you say?

Also I'm not sure I have ever heard that only 9E and XJ can be regionals for NWA. The only scope restriction I'm aware of is that only XJ pilot can fly the 36 (now 35, thanks super mechanic) Avros. Besides there already is a third carrier, American Eagle out of LA and Boston.

Dodnk, good luck to you and it's good to see you have a positive attitude about negotiations but it could be a hard fall for you in the next couple of years when you see what NWA is capable of.

 

[flap operator]

Ace - if you read deep into the scope there is language that says the NWA MEC must approve all new codeshare partners and basically says that PCL and XJ are the only airlines to operate as "NWA Airlink." Eagle at LAX is not an airlink operation (neither is Pacific Island Airlines even though they call themselves an Airlink). Eagle is only a codeshare operation much like DL, CO, AS and the rest of them are.


FO

 

[DTWFO]

It is nice to see that there are others at Pinnacle that share my feelings towards unity and this contract. I've been here two years and during that time the company has done so many things to abuse this pilot group; and I hope no one forgets that when all these games start. I will NEVER forget the things they have done to me and the only way for me to forgive them is with a great contract. They can drag these negotiations out as long as they want....there will be an impass eventually and at that time I'd rather see Pinnacle out of business than carry on the way it is now. I think the company has underestimated the militant nature of the pilot group that they have helped to create.

 

[FN FAL]

Ace - if you read deep into the scope there is language that says the NWA MEC must approve all new codeshare partners and basically says that PCL and XJ are the only airlines to operate as "NWA Airlink." Eagle at LAX is not an airlink operation (neither is Pacific Island Airlines even though they call themselves an Airlink). Eagle is only a codeshare operation much like DL, CO, AS and the rest of them are.


FO

So what protection is that? All they have to do is decide not to have "Northwest Airlink" anymore and just use code shares. They could call the new codeshares "Northwest Skylink". Who would know the difference?

 

[flap operator]

The difference between a codeshare and an Airlink carrier is that they buy all the airlink seats and then they market and sell our seats. They buy all the fuel for the CRJs and Avros. They do so many more things with an airlink than they do with a codeshare. I never said we were protected... the NWA pilots could very well make changes to their contract to not provide that exclusivity to us. One thing is certain though... NWA wouldn't have the control or the financial benefits of PNCL and XJ merely as codeshares, as they do with as Airlink partners.

FO

 

[xrayojilp1]

Dondk, Some good research, I hope you are right, but you have to know that NWA and PCL have lawyers working nearly around the clock trying to figure ways around this stuff, legal or not.

DTWFO, I feel the exact same way, I will never forget some of the crap pulled on us by our @#$%$ managment. I have absolutely no loyalty to this company anymore even though I have been here for quite some time, I almost hope that we do just shut the doors. A great contract is not enough, managment has always shown total disregard for it anyway.

 

[dondk]

XJ guys... Sorry about the thought or concept of you actually having some positive growth in '02.. I thought when the announcement of all 9E's saab's going over that was before the retirement of the A models. I do remember the furloughs at XJ and then the second time you furloughed as well.. My mistake and I am sorry I made that comment. While your pilot group is not growing, your ground operations are. I think I have heard almost doubling in size by the end of the year.

For the record, I do not have any positve thoughts about the negiotations in any way or form. I have flown with several of the union people directly involved with the negiotations and I can say I never got a warm and fuzzy feeling we are going to get anywhere near a industry leading contract. One even told me to lower my expectations so I would not be as disappointed.

I do think though that NWA is in the game to make money, regardless of the labor and the company the labor works for. I don't see them suddenly stopping regional jet's and finding a replacement that only the NWA pilot's will fly. Going to codeshares is not in NWA's best interest, they (NWA Mgmt) likes to call ALL the shot's. Those who work under the NWA game know exactly what I mean. Who cancelled most of our SIDA badge access in DTW? enough said with that.

Remember NWA was the last player into the regional jet game (other than 36 avro's), they still need to "catch up" to thier peer's in this field. The RJ's have a specific mission for NWA and they will stay until that mission is no longer required, just as the Saab's will stay and the DC-9's. Also remember NWA pilot's contract is first, they still need to pi$$ them off and whipsaw them before getting around to 9E. It will be an interesting 6 months or so.

I do think and expect to be b!tch slapped by NWA, I expect to see XJ grow and 9E stagnate. I even expect to see furloughs at 9E.

We have furloughed, guys have been displaced, the company came back for pay a year later, had the contract violated or interpeted by barney so many different ways and times.. I would not put it past them to try to find a way around the SEC filing. I just don't see them doing something "stupid" just to teach the pilot's a lesson. They will make us pay in other ways first.

 

[68pilot]

I hope you guys at PCL learned a lesson from the XJ guys about expectations. Three years of negotiations for a five percent raise for Captains.
Yikes.

 

[Lear70]

I hope you guys at PCL learned a lesson from the XJ guys about expectations. Three years of negotiations for a five percent raise for Captains.
Yikes.

Exactamundo... that's what I was talking about a few weeks ago on here and I feel for every XJ Captain who looked at all that and wished they hadn't paid ALPA dues (would have been a bigger overall raise including their measly "retro").

I keep waiting to hear about the regional carrier who sues ALPA national for allowing their MEC to sign a contract that didn't satisfy the major provisions of their polling. ALPA bears the legal responsibility to represent its pilots in the manner in which they are directed; they are therefore liable for any gross misrepresentation issues, including where they ignore the desires of the body politic and do their own thing in negotiations.

Here at PCL we do phone polling of the ENTIRE pilot group by a company called Wilson Polling. IF I'm still here at the end of contract negotiations and IF they bring us a contract that only gives a 5 or 10% raise for the Captains and 10 to 15% for the F/O's you can bet your money I'll be getting a bunch of other Captains together and filing a class action faster than ALPA could believe because I KNOW the majority of the pilots would have been demanding much more on the polling and that data would be usable in court.

Many of us have VERY high expectations, somewhere around a 30% raising 50% raise for F/O's over a four-year term (that's an increase from $18k a year starting pay to about $23,5k then up to $30k by the end of the term, 3rd year f/o from $25k now to about $40k), and an increase in CA pay of at least 20% initially and 35% over a four-year term (brings 1st year CA pay from $48k to about $57,6k and 5th year from about $58,5k to about $80k), plus at least a duty rig and an end to the reserve b.s. that's been going on here.

Those rates are less than Comair but somewhere I believe is reasonable and reachable here. I've also spoken with several union "officials" and they've said things similar to what Dondk posted and that scares the bejeesus out of me. But just as we're putting management on notice that we won't accept a sub-par contract, a group of us has been putting our MEC on notice that we won't stand for it. If a T.A. comes out that's anything less than above, there's a HUGE group of us ready to start recall elections in ALL the domiciles.

So far our negotiating team has shown us that won't be necessary, and our negotiating chair put out an article that they could DOUBLE our pay and benefits and it be only 1/2 of $0.01 per ASM cost increase which is easily affordable when their profit per ASM is around $0.11. He also told me he won't put out a T.A. that doesn't satisfy the majority of the Wilson Polling data, so I'm being relatively quiet for now... However, as negotiations drag on, the whipsaw begins, and tempers flair, I believe even more people will be drawn to our "millitant" side of the table.

Last contract that was signed here, the pilot group's motto was STMFD (Shut The Mutha Fu*ker Down). That group now represents only the top 250 pilots out of nearly 1,000 pilots but they still control the majority of the MEC seats and their ire has cooled to a point I'm uncomfortable with. I can only hope that the company does some really "Dumba*s" things to piss them off again so they return to their previous mantra.

p.s. My strike fund is at about $5,000 and I'm buying a lot of rental property cheaply right now so that, if need be, I can sustain myself for a looonnngggg time. I try and educate my fellow pilots on the need for some savings and a contingency plan but the F/O's just don't make enough to save anything unless they get a 2nd job (which is what I've been suggesting - I have one).

 

[T-Gates]

As for a GIA dude in the left seat.. close.. I don't think he passed just yet, but he is the first of a handful. The majority of the first wave of GIA people will going to the left seat in the next few months...

There are atleast 2 in the left seat right now done with IOE and thier fed rides....just an FYI

 

[cathal]

The only problem with Wilson polling is that those who are polled are answering the questions with nothing to lose. It is one thing to say you will strike for some combination of reasons. I fear you at 9E will find it is a different matter entirely when an actual ratification vote is before you.

The polling results at XJ told us we would have struck if our current contract was put in front of us. We did not strike. Instead, a certain amount of us did not realize that we would actually be satisfied with less than what we wanted or that we could be scared into believing that XJ might indeed shut its doors if we struck.

I feel bad for all of us at the NWA family table. Ma and PA are constantly asking us why we can't be more like the other other sibling at the dinner table, causing us to be more afraid of each other and causing us to fight more with ourselves than the one who are dishing out the portions.

I can't tell anyone to ask for less, but your expectations of a comair contract are unrealistic. Many of your siblings who say they want the sun, moon, and stars will be satisfied with something sub-orbital. Best of luck, with all the sincerity possible.