Pinnacle Files for Bankruptcy

[johnsonrod]

My bet is that GoJets gets the CR9s and flies them for Delta at the lowest cost possible... We've seen it before.

What's the likelihood that the Q400s get picked up by Great Lakes or someone who could deploy them on the cheap?

 

[79%N1]

I don't know what to think about all this until the General expounds his wisdom to tell me so.

 

[Kaman]

Absolutely nothing to be gained putting jets on Colgan certificate. Unless that was a tongue in cheek remark. My guess would be Commutair or TSA Holdings...

 

[satlol]

As a former 9E guy and a currently employed VX guy, if any of you guys/gals want help getting on at VX, please PM me. Good luck folks, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

 

[General Lee]

I don't know what to think about all this until the General expounds his wisdom to tell me so.

Thanks 79%N1, I will do that for you. 50 seaters aint cheap, especially with high fuel costs. If oil stays this high, I think many could go away sooner than later. I think Delta may own those 16 PNCL(FLG) CR9s, so they may put them out for the lowest bidder (just a guess). Maybe you guys will get them, or maybe Gojets. It's going to be cost cuts that will ensure future growth for regionals, sad but true. Hopefully we at mainline can hold the scope line, and as pilots do retire enmasse in the near future, bring some of you on, or all of you in a staple job. And if you guys are ever my co-pilot on the 787 (eventually), remember, I buy the 3rd and 5th beers. And, I'll also throw my money down for at least 6 chicken wings for us to share, mild only please.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[N813CA]

I would rather drink my own piss than get a free drink or wing from you.

 

[Indy319FA]

The 900's probably will not go anywhere. DAL will restructure them and they will continue to do the flying they have been doing all along.

Menke indicated in his conference call that the financing by Bombardier on the 900s was linked to the Qs and there was no way for this to happen. The planes have to go back to Bombardier because the Qs are going back. That's not to say DL could not buy them from Bombardier and lease them to us, but you can't keep the 900s without the Qs.

 

[airplane wizard]

Keep the CR2 and get rid of the Q400?????? Isn't the CRJ-200 their least fuel efficient plane??????

 

[General Lee]

I would rather drink my own piss than get a free drink or wing from you.

Hopefully I will never have to buy you anything, ever....Really. And did you say you would drink your own pee? That is gross.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[dvmthwsvan]

I see Delta is providing the DIP financing. That has to be a good sign.

 

[xjhawk]

they then get a say in the future business plan or restructuring deal or sale deal......take a look at history. Delta is being ran by the same guy who orchestrated the bottom dollar buyout of mesaba. Make em cheap and snap them up for what ever plans you have for them. In this case, it might be just to get rid of the 200's


Or some back door scope deal that would make any wholly owned a second class "C" scale paid delta pilot to fly 100 seaters.

 

[WWEfan]

Hopefully we at mainline can hold the scope line,



Bye Bye---General Lee

Interesting. You used to be adamate that mainline would maintain scope. Now you seem to be wavering. Let this be a lesson to all. Even the mightiest of keyboard tough guys will give up on scope for a few measly bucks.

 

[777forever]

Keep the CR2 and get rid of the Q400?????? Isn't the CRJ-200 their least fuel efficient plane??????

Fuel cost is mainline's problem. Regionals just worry about the profitability of a contract and the CR2 flying is the most profitable. In fact it's what kept the flying afloat this long.

I see Delta is providing the DIP financing. That has to be a good sign.

Delta had little choice. It was either pony up some cash to Pinnacle or watch 200 planes suddenly disappear from the operation when Pinnacle was predicted to run out of cash at the end of the month.

The only good sign I guess is the 200 contract got extended another 4 1/2 years to 2022. CR2 is going to be in the Delta system for a LONG time

 

[johnpeace]

I would rather drink my own piss than get a free drink or wing from you.

Flightinfo post of the year!!

 

[JustaNumber]

It's going to be cost cuts that will ensure future growth for regionals, sad but true. Hopefully we at mainline can hold the scope line, and as pilots do retire enmasse in the near future, bring some of you on, or all of you in a staple job.

General, I don't think you realize the future impact of lower regional pay on YOUR wages. The best thing for your job would be to see that regional wages are protected. If 50% of all Delta departures are being flown by someone making minimum wage, how long do you think your quarter-mil-a-year jobs will last? Management will FIND a way to transfer flying, even if it means cooking the books to show a paper bankruptcy. Protecting regional wages should be much more important to you than scope, because if regional captains are making close to mainline wages, there won't be any need for artificial scope protection.

 

[jynxyjericho]

General, I don't think you realize the future impact of lower regional pay on YOUR wages. The best thing for your job would be to see that regional wages are protected. If 50% of all Delta departures are being flown by someone making minimum wage, how long do you think your quarter-mil-a-year jobs will last? Management will FIND a way to transfer flying, even if it means cooking the books to show a paper bankruptcy. Protecting regional wages should be much more important to you than scope, because if regional captains are making close to mainline wages, there won't be any need for artificial scope protection.

Awww- the pilot solidarity myth angle... a classic opening, but futile. There is no such thing as pilot solidarity.

 

[Simon Says]

Thanks 79%N1, I will do that for you. 50 seaters aint cheap, especially with high fuel costs. If oil stays this high, I think many could go away sooner than later. I think Delta may own those 16 PNCL(FLG) CR9s, so they may put them out for the lowest bidder (just a guess). Maybe you guys will get them, or maybe Gojets. It's going to be cost cuts that will ensure future growth for regionals, sad but true. Hopefully we at mainline can hold the scope line, and as pilots do retire enmasse in the near future, bring some of you on, or all of you in a staple job. And if you guys are ever my co-pilot on the 787 (eventually), remember, I buy the 3rd and 5th beers. And, I'll also throw my money down for at least 6 chicken wings for us to share, mild only please.



Bye Bye---General Lee

I am still trying to figure out the 3rd and 5th beer thing...General, are you saying that FO's buy the 1st, 2nd, and 4th round of beers or did you mean the Captain buys those rounds?

 

[i fly boxes]

also general, you are wrong, pinnacle owns those 16 900's. for now anyways

 

[Golden Falcon]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest


Hope the link works, little light reading...

 

[sinkrate]

Fuel cost is mainline's problem. Regionals just worry about the profitability of a contract and the CR2 flying is the most profitable. In fact it's what kept the flying afloat this long.



Delta had little choice. It was either pony up some cash to Pinnacle or watch 200 planes suddenly disappear from the operation when Pinnacle was predicted to run out of cash at the end of the month.

The only good sign I guess is the 200 contract got extended another 4 1/2 years to 2022. CR2 is going to be in the Delta system for a LONG time

Not yet. Several items menke mentioned were very important - and overlooked by most pilots-

-Delta was the only entity that would provide DIP financing
-Delta swapped 43 mil of secured debt from the mesaba transaction for DIP debt. Why? Delta is listed as a creditor that has supplied 73 mil in DIP financing but it only resulted in 30 mil net cash to PCL.
-Menke stated the price for that was all the Delta contracts are now 'in play'. Translated that means that not only is the contract for the 16 PCL owned 900's gone but in addition the contracts for the remaining 42 900's and the all the 200's have been modified
-Menke stated those contracts may be extended to 2022 provided certian cost reductions are met

Anyone care to guess what those cost reductions are? Anyone that has been around long enough to be familiar with R Anderson and his whipsaw tactics knows what is coming next.

The 74 airplanes announced so far are just the start of this. Unless the remainder of the PCL pilots are willing to agree to big consessions you will see even more AC leave your property.

Someone predicted that in a year PCL will be the size of CMR. I think he's wrong - by a year. It will take two years.

It is part of Delta's strategy to keep all regional pilots at year one pay.

 

[Whataboutbob]

Not yet. Several items menke mentioned were very important - and overlooked by most pilots-

-Delta was the only entity that would provide DIP financing
-Delta swapped 43 mil of secured debt from the mesaba transaction for DIP debt. Why? Delta is listed as a creditor that has supplied 73 mil in DIP financing but it only resulted in 30 mil net cash to PCL.
-Menke stated the price for that was all the Delta contracts are now 'in play'. Translated that means that not only is the contract for the 16 PCL owned 900's gone but in addition the contracts for the remaining 42 900's and the all the 200's have been modified
-Menke stated those contracts may be extended to 2022 provided certian cost reductions are met

Anyone care to guess what those cost reductions are? Anyone that has been around long enough to be familiar with R Anderson and his whipsaw tactics knows what is coming next.

The 74 airplanes announced so far are just the start of this. Unless the remainder of the PCL pilots are willing to agree to big consessions you will see even more AC leave your property.

Someone predicted that in a year PCL will be the size of CMR. I think he's wrong - by a year. It will take two years.

It is part of Delta's strategy to keep all regional pilots at year one pay.

I would agree with you. Anyone that thinks the CRJ200 will scave through this bankruptcy untouched is out to lunch. It might not be as big of # as the 76 announced so far but it could also be more. Time will tell.

There will be a huge whipsaw game played out in this bankruptcy. Has United even officially announced they are cutting ties with Pinnacle?? All the press release stuff I've seen is coming from Pinnacle's end saying its over and winding down. Menke will come to labor and say if we can get to this price point, United will let us keep flying the Q400 for them and as a bonus Delta will let us keep the CRJ900. But unfortunately they want 100 CRJ200's parked. I'm not smart enough to figure out the end game. Who knows. But if Menke wanted 5% from the pilots before bankruptcy I would guess they are now going to ask for 10% in hopes of getting the 5%??

 

[bri5150]

A la Mesaba bankruptcy, fight in court to allow 10% and when judge allows that negotiate for 5% so we can vote between the lesser of 2 evils.

 

[sinkrate]

A la Mesaba bankruptcy, fight in court to allow 10% and when judge allows that negotiate for 5% so we can vote between the lesser of 2 evils.

This time I don't think Delta will be interested in saving the day and buying us for an IPO/spin off. My guess is there will be a much bigger emphasis on paycuts this time around.

 

[Kaman]

The rapid unionization of Colgan, JCBA, Integrated seniority list and compressed realignment were all done in short-order. And while I appreciate their zeal and motivation. Our equally niave and inexperirnced ALPA representatives were drawn down the current road to ruin by a very shrewd Delta board of directors. This has been in the works for a long time, and wouldn't be surprised if PNCL Corp. didn"t cook the books in order to get it past our astute ALPA financial experts. Careful what you as ask for...we got it alright plus interest...

 

[bri5150]

Those "niave and inexperienced" ALPA representatives you talk about got me $13k in my 401k and snapback wages during the last bankruptcy. And that $13k was on the very low end of what most Mesaba pilots got at the time. Many guys actually came out ahead wagewise from the last bankruptcy.

 

[CRJ puppy]

also general, you are wrong, pinnacle owns those 16 900's. for now anyways

Actually, they are "owned" by the lessor.

 

[JustaNumber]

Awww- the pilot solidarity myth angle... a classic opening, but futile. There is no such thing as pilot solidarity.

Agreed. Therefore, mainline jobs will continue to disappear, as the regionals get cheaper and cheaper and cheaper...

 

[IbeFlyenhye]

Here is another good article. Not entirely accurate, but good.

http://crankyflier.com/2012/04/03/pinnacle-files-for-bankruptcy-protection-you-shouldnt-care/

 

[Whataboutbob]

Those "niave and inexperienced" ALPA representatives you talk about got me $13k in my 401k and snapback wages during the last bankruptcy. And that $13k was on the very low end of what most Mesaba pilots got at the time. Many guys actually came out ahead wagewise from the last bankruptcy.

During the Mesaba bankruptcy in 05' most of the low cost carriers and most of the regionals were hiring. The only regional airline furloughing was Mesaba. So you had most guys who wanted out had the opportunity to leave at all levels "Captains going to Southwest, Airtran..." "F.O's going to Skywest..... Thats one thing that will be different this time. You won't have as many Captains leaving from the top of the list as you probably did back in 2005'. I think those First Officers that want to gamble on a latter move will have the opportunity to take a job at another regional while Pinnacle goes through bankruptcy. My memory of some of the biggest winners in that bankruptcy were Captains waiting for class dates for Southwest that got $20-25k deposited into their 401ks right before leaving to greener pastures. Hopefully once management gets what they want ALPA will make sure the pilots leave bankruptcy with some kickers for our contributions.

I agree with you bri5150 that our ALPA reps did a great job in the last bankruptcy. This may be Sean Menke's second airline bankruptcy as CEO but guess what, its not Tom Wychor's first rodeo either. I'm glad he is at the helm of our local ALPA branch for this bankruptcy. Seans got some tuff competition

 

[bri5150]

Yup. This one is different in a lot of ways. I am just sick of peoe spouting off about things they have no idea what they are talking about. Calling our current union reps naive and inexperienced is just a joke.