Pinnacle Files for Bankruptcy

[PCL_128]

Yeah but useless for all practical purposes.

Tell that to the Mesaba pilots who were around for the last bankruptcy. They certainly wouldn't have turned out so well if it weren't for ALPA, Captain Wychor, and the rest of the MSA ALPA team. Unions have one hand tied behind their back in bankruptcy, but having one is far better than not having one.

 

[Flyer1015]

Tell that to the Mesaba pilots who were around for the last bankruptcy. They certainly wouldn't have turned out so well if it weren't for ALPA, Captain Wychor, and the rest of the MSA ALPA team. Unions have one hand tied behind their back in bankruptcy, but having one is far better than not having one.

Don't confuse the last round 2005 bankruptcy to this one, it's entirely apples to oranges. The external factors at play are far worse today than they were in 2005. There is no negotiating snap-back provisions today as it was back then. Today, the company told Wychor it would have to be a permanent 5% paycut as a pre-condition to continue meeting. He turned it down, and rightfully so. It still doesn't change the fact that ALPA will basically become useless as the court systems are used to pillage and screw the pilots. The same thing for American Eagle!

 

[PCL_128]

Every bankruptcy is different, but saying it's apples to oranges isn't accurate. It's more like green apples compared to red apples. There are variations, but an apple is still an apple, and a bankruptcy is still a bankruptcy. ALPA will not be useless. The union's job will be difficult, but the pilots will turn out better as a result of having representation than if they didn't have representation.

 

[Raskal]

Every bankruptcy is different, but saying it's apples to oranges isn't accurate. It's more like green apples compared to red apples. There are variations, but an apple is still an apple, and a bankruptcy is still a bankruptcy. ALPA will not be useless. The union's job will be difficult, but the pilots will turn out better as a result of having representation than if they didn't have representation.

I had friends here during the shamruptcy, but even then, wasn't a 50% paycut actually approved by the judge, although the company didn't implement it? The market for employees was different then...this time why wouldn't they run with it? Look at what Mesa ended up with. No one is more powerful than a bankruptcy judge-to think otherwise is a stunning display of naivete.

 

[Flyer1015]

Every bankruptcy is different, but saying it's apples to oranges isn't accurate. It's more like green apples compared to red apples. There are variations, but an apple is still an apple, and a bankruptcy is still a bankruptcy. ALPA will not be useless. The union's job will be difficult, but the pilots will turn out better as a result of having representation than if they didn't have representation.

Ok, I could agree with that. But my point is once 1113 is filed, things against your will are imposed and ALPA is helpless at that point. Plus, don't get me started on ALPA.... trying to serve two masters when in reality it can only serve one. Trying to protect and speak up for one masters well-being, which directly affects the other master (regionals). I would love regional flying to be taken back into mainline, but I did have a problem seeing my dues at work at ALPA while they protested flying I did. You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, I moved onto a non-union carrier and ALPA sent a letter stating that they were sorry to hear I left to a carrier not represented by ALPA. Then they offered me a chance to continue receiving the ALPA pilot magazine (along with a few other perks) for $50 per year. I smiled, tore that letter up, and threw it straight into the kitchen garbage can.

 

[DoinTime]

I had friends here during the shamruptcy, but even then, wasn't a 50% paycut actually approved by the judge, although the company didn't implement it?

The judge granted Mesaba's request to impose contract terms on their pilots. For whatever reason, the Mesaba executives at the time chose not to impose and settle negotiations with ALPA. If PNCL's request to impose is granted this time, will they let that right go unused?

 

[Flyer1015]

The judge granted Mesaba's request to impose contract terms on their pilots. For whatever reason, the Mesaba executives at the time chose not to impose and settle negotiations with ALPA. If PNCL's request to impose is granted this time, will they let that right go unused?

Of course not! How else will they get payraises for senior management?

 

[titans10]

I love when people throw out random info with no source

Believe what you want. Delta will get ride of alot more 200's. Good luck.

 

[silver02ex]

Believe what you want. Delta will get ride of alot more 200's. Good luck.

Ok when is that? That's like me saying Delta will get rid of all DC9, you seem to know about it, so tell us how many and when? Yes you are right, they will be gone it's just a matter of "when" if they are going to leave this year or next, it would have been mention when it was announce that the 16 CRJ9 are leaving also.

 

[Raskal]

Ok when is that? That's like me saying Delta will get rid of all DC9, you seem to know about it, so tell us how many and when? Yes you are right, they will be gone it's just a matter of "when" if they are going to leave this year or next, it would have been mention when it was announce that the 16 CRJ9 are leaving also.

This whole "getting rid of 200's" thing is a bit confusing to me. Ok, so they get rid of them. Then what? That lift can't just disappear, DAL needs the feed. 76 seaters are topped out. Although it's cute to think a 777 will fly from smaller airports the reality is different.

So, logically, the next step is to replace the 200's with the new 100 seaters. Great. Where do they go? Bottom of the list at DAL? I hope so, but in the last week alone I've had two 777 capts in my jumpseat say the exact same line when talking about this: "Scope isn't as important now with the 100 seaters..." Both times my eyes bugged out of my head. I sincerely hope the Delta pilots hold on the scope thing but frankly, I'm thinking management will throw some money and retirement bennies aimed at the senior group and scope will weaken. The junior guys won't be able to hold the vote (can they ever?) and this whole wretched mess will start all over again but with the 100 seaters.

 

[JustaNumber]

The whole regional model needs to change otherwise this is going to start happening to all the regional airlines, one by one. The bidding wars and race to the bottom is destroying the industry. The only thing that will fix it is much tighter regulations and something to level out the playing field like minimum wages for pilots based on equipment types. If we're going to be bound by the RLA, then there needs to be better protection for the airline workers. Everytime the price of fuel farts, someone's going bankrupt.

This industry needs heavy regulation.

The government is CAUSING the wave of bankruptcies. Why would you want them to meddle even more? Not to mention, history PROVES that forced involuntary wage and price controls always lead to screwed-up markets.

Every time a government judge allows one side of a contract to not honor its agreement, that entity gets a competitive advantage over others who are honoring their agreements. Then the others have to play the BK game just to compete with the "cheaters". Notice how ALL the majors have now had to declare BK since 9/11? Now the government is allowing the same contract violations to ruin the regional industry.

The Constitution authorizes the government to ensure that contracts are enforced. The current use of Ch.11 ensures that companies have government protection when they don't meet their obligations. Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy process is fundamentally unconstitutional. It kills industries, it doesn't save them.

 

[RJLoser]

...................

 

[suupah]

I might be missing something but where are some you guys getting the 2022 contract extention on the 200's

Menke said it on the employee call

 

[Flyer1015]

Somehow I don't think Delta will keep all CRJ-200s at Pinnacle Corp for another 10 years. There's just no way, not when gas is as expensive as it is and when there's already a glut of -200s.

 

[Turtle21]

Ok, I could agree with that. But my point is once 1113 is filed, things against your will are imposed and ALPA is helpless at that point. Plus, don't get me started on ALPA.... trying to serve two masters when in reality it can only serve one. Trying to protect and speak up for one masters well-being, which directly affects the other master (regionals). I would love regional flying to be taken back into mainline, but I did have a problem seeing my dues at work at ALPA while they protested flying I did. You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, I moved onto a non-union carrier and ALPA sent a letter stating that they were sorry to hear I left to a carrier not represented by ALPA. Then they offered me a chance to continue receiving the ALPA pilot magazine (along with a few other perks) for $50 per year. I smiled, tore that letter up, and threw it straight into the kitchen garbage can.

Read it? Tore it up? That was a terrible waste of time... Could have just thrown it straight in the toilet. :lol:

 

[JumpersAway]

I wonder if Delta is providing DIP financing and extending the 200 contract as an investment opportunity. Perhaps they are trying to "sweeten" the pot for a buy out, by someone like SkyWest Inc. If this is done, and Delta has a controlling interest, or some stock, they stand to make a pretty penny from a sale.

 

[Raskal]

I wonder if Delta is providing DIP financing and extending the 200 contract as an investment opportunity. Perhaps they are trying to "sweeten" the pot for a buy out, by someone like SkyWest Inc. If this is done, and Delta has a controlling interest, or some stock, they stand to make a pretty penny from a sale.

What?! An ulterior motive? And money at that?! Bite your tongue sir, just bite it! Delta is as pure as the driven ho! I mean snow...

 

[Thebadcat1313]

I wonder if Delta is providing DIP financing and extending the 200 contract as an investment opportunity. Perhaps they are trying to "sweeten" the pot for a buy out, by someone like SkyWest Inc. If this is done, and Delta has a controlling interest, or some stock, they stand to make a pretty penny from a sale.

Certainly anythings possible, however, after the expressjet purchase I HIGHLY doubt Skywest Inc will ever buy another airline. This has been very painful for Jerry and the Board....

 

[russtgol]

Certainly anythings possible, however, after the expressjet purchase I HIGHLY doubt Skywest Inc will ever buy another airline. This has been very painful for Jerry and the Board....

They have buyers remorse..During the last confrence call they said they won't do that again.. Buying exjet was a huge mistake.should have just let them fold and take the assests.

 

[trip]

"sweeten" the pot for a buy out, by someone like SkyWest Inc.

Buy what? you don't own anything, it's all leased or owned by DL.

Hopefully this will be another warning to those companies that play "fast and loose" with the bidding of contracts with hopes of sweeter things to come.

 

[8sugarsugar]

Buy what? you don't own anything, it's all leased or owned by DL.

Hopefully this will be another warning to those companies that play "fast and loose" with the bidding of contracts with hopes of sweeter things to come.

Seriously, I don't understand, can someone explain this to me...Okay, Pinnacle doesn't own the planes, doesn't buy fuel, doesn't sell tickets, etc etc....So how can a company go bankrupt that has a fixed cost and a fixed revenue source?????

Are they not just a certificate that has a building and a workforce?

 

[Inconceivable]

Short answer: shenanigans.

Delta agreed to pay training costs related to the acquisition of Mesaba. Delta then reneged.

The beginning, end, and middle of the crisis at hand has been orchestrated by Delta. Just as NWA did with Mesaba, parts of the operation were more profitable than others but the entire corporation was net profitable. The crisis only emerged when Delta stopped paying their bills.

This entire process is a fraud being perpetrated on the bankruptcy court where bankruptcy is caused by the same party that becomes the DIP by applying minimal liquidity and recapitalizing existing unsecured debt. This same party is the sole beneficiary of renegotiated agreements as the only client of the new Pinnacle.

What you are seeing is a wealth transfer: from the shareholders and employees of Pinnacle to the shareholders of Delta. Or legalized theft, you choose.

 

[Flyer1015]

Why should Delta have to pay for Colgan's US Air side of the operation? There's a reason they reneged.

 

[Inconceivable]

Why should Delta have to pay for Colgan's US Air side of the operation? There's a reason they reneged.

Because that's what they agreed to. Are you really going to tell me that the executives at DAL "forgot" to do their due diligence? LOL

 

[Flyer1015]

Because that's what they agreed to. Are you really going to tell me that the executives at DAL "forgot" to do their due diligence? LOL

NO. Delta NEVER agreed to pay Pinnacle to retrain Colgan guys. Remember, Pinnacle *chose* to voluntarily close up the BOS Saab base and retrain them elsewhere to improve our staffing situation. Delta had no part in that, nor should they have to pay for the US Air side of things. Delta's only agreement was to pay for retraining associated with the MESABA DISPLACEMENTS coming off the Delta Saabs being parked! They will not, and should not, give one dime of their money to help retrain any Colgan pilots. Delta is not going to help subsidize a Colgan pilot's movement to make some more money.

 

[suupah]

NO. Delta NEVER agreed to pay Pinnacle to retrain Colgan guys. Remember, Pinnacle *chose* to voluntarily close up the BOS Saab base and retrain them elsewhere to improve our staffing situation. Delta had no part in that, nor should they have to pay for the US Air side of things. Delta's only agreement was to pay for retraining associated with the MESABA DISPLACEMENTS coming off the Delta Saabs being parked! They will not, and should not, give one dime of their money to help retrain any Colgan pilots. Delta is not going to help subsidize a Colgan pilot's movement to make some more money.

So did they pay for any of the mesaba displacements?

 

[mesaba13]

At the time Delta sold they airline they didn't know there would be a single seniority list?

 

[Flyer1015]

At the time Delta sold they airline they didn't know there would be a single seniority list?

No. And why would they? Compass was sold at the same time and they still have separate lists. The one-list thing was all 100% union led in order to prevent whipsaw. Ironically, this one list will actually destroy what little unity the pilot groups had. In fact, the entire process has destroyed unity rather than create it. All 3 unions tore each other apart in SLI negotiations and then there was the appealing of the DOH issue at Pinnacle. After all that BS, there was a distinct "us versus them" attitude that prevailed in the pilot groups, and the 9E union tried to do what it could to try and become the surviving union. They failed. Now, with the upcoming fleet parking, all 3 pilot groups will want what's best for their own interests.

Also, the 9E union agreeing to merge their list with another carrier that was shrinking was a stupid move. The 9E pilots took the brunt force of the Mesaba Saab cuts, as the Mesaba pilots made their way into the Pinnacle left and right seats. "They brought the contract" and "everyone is brining something to this merger!" were said and used over and over again. Well, the contract is about to be tossed in bankruptcy and Colgan's Queen Q fleet (and the Saabs) are gonna be parked. With one list, Pinnacle will yet again take a huge blow for the entire loss of the colgan operation. The lists should never have been combined. If they had never been combined, Mesaba would have furloughed and downgraded their pilots as a result of the Saabs being parked. Pinnacle and Colgan unaffected. Next, with the news of the BK and Colgan disappearing, the entire Colgan pilot group would have been furloughed once the airline stopped operating. Pinnacle pilots unaffected. The ONLY thing that would have affected the 9E pilots if they had their own list would have been the loss of 16 CRJ-900s. That loss would have hurt 9E pilots, but at least it would have been everyone on the 9E list. Instead, you got the union fighting each other and shoving the one-list idea down everyone's throats despite objections. The 9E union should have (for that time being) not agreed to merging one seniority list when it was a known fact that 30+ aircraft were being parked at one other airline. Pinnacle's old management deserves blame for where Pinnacle is today, but the plight of 9E-only pilots falls squarely on the 9E union for making horrible decisions that have gotten to where 9E is today.

 

[bri5150]

So you think that Pinnacle holdings should have ran 3 completely seperate companies? What would have happened if Mesaba would have gotten those 700's that went to GoJets? There would have been no backlash from the Pinnacle pilots about why Mesaba got those? Remember, no hind sight allowed. There is no way to know what was about to happen to Colgan. I am sure the quote would have been "they got those 700's on our profits!!"

 

[FOrever85]

No. And why would they? Compass was sold at the same time and they still have separate lists. The one-list thing was all 100% union led in order to prevent whipsaw. Ironically, this one list will actually destroy what little unity the pilot groups had. In fact, the entire process has destroyed unity rather than create it. All 3 unions tore each other apart in SLI negotiations and then there was the appealing of the DOH issue at Pinnacle. After all that BS, there was a distinct "us versus them" attitude that prevailed in the pilot groups, and the 9E union tried to do what it could to try and become the surviving union. They failed. Now, with the upcoming fleet parking, all 3 pilot groups will want what's best for their own interests.

Also, the 9E union agreeing to merge their list with another carrier that was shrinking was a stupid move. The 9E pilots took the brunt force of the Mesaba Saab cuts, as the Mesaba pilots made their way into the Pinnacle left and right seats. "They brought the contract" and "everyone is brining something to this merger!" were said and used over and over again. Well, the contract is about to be tossed in bankruptcy and Colgan's Queen Q fleet (and the Saabs) are gonna be parked. With one list, Pinnacle will yet again take a huge blow for the entire loss of the colgan operation. The lists should never have been combined. If they had never been combined, Mesaba would have furloughed and downgraded their pilots as a result of the Saabs being parked. Pinnacle and Colgan unaffected. Next, with the news of the BK and Colgan disappearing, the entire Colgan pilot group would have been furloughed once the airline stopped operating. Pinnacle pilots unaffected. The ONLY thing that would have affected the 9E pilots if they had their own list would have been the loss of 16 CRJ-900s. That loss would have hurt 9E pilots, but at least it would have been everyone on the 9E list. Instead, you got the union fighting each other and shoving the one-list idea down everyone's throats despite objections. The 9E union should have (for that time being) not agreed to merging one seniority list when it was a known fact that 30+ aircraft were being parked at one other airline. Pinnacle's old management deserves blame for where Pinnacle is today, but the plight of 9E-only pilots falls squarely on the 9E union for making horrible decisions that have gotten to where 9E is today.

Hey general lee jr., Why are you still complaining about this? You don't even work here anymore.

We are and always will be NWA's/Delta's bit%^.
Inconceivable has it spot on. This whole thing doesn't have anything to do with Delta retraining Colgan pilots, separate seniority lists, or any of the other crap your talking about. Delta obviously doesn't care about giving money to regionals that fly for competing carriers, except for us for some reason.

Oh wait, I remember now. It's because Delta makes a sh*t load of money off of doing this to us. They make an already cheap product cheaper. They can slash aircraft, building, and vendor leases, and undo labor contracts. They get cheaper contracted regional flying, that they control, and make money doing it!

Someone quick, what is 12.5% interest on $74,285,000.

Not only that, but Delta also gets paid penalties for 9E parking 900's and they can park 200's.(Personally I don't think they will yet)
All of this comes right from the court filing.

It is a rinse and repeat of the last bankruptcy on a much larger scale.
In the end, we will once again be a wholly controlled regional of Delta. Like usual, Delta already has something planned for us.

I'm not even going to waste my time pointing out all the other things you have got wrong in this thread. If you want, keep pretending that 9E's union doing something else would have changed things. News flash; It wouldn't have. If anything you should be happy, this was obviously the kick in the head you needed to get out.

The last thing this pilot group needs right now is some whiny, know it all trying to re-divide the pilot group. The ones that work here are bad enough, we really don't need one that doesn't even work here!

Congrats, now move on, and don't look back.