Pinnacle Files for Bankruptcy

[sinkrate]

that would be awesome! btw did you put that avatar up during the xj bnkrptcy? my gawd i've been at this too long.

To my knowledge no pilot group has had a contract imposed by a BK judge. In every case I am familiar with the judge has told them to keep bargaining until they reach a consensual Agreement. That is not neccessarily good for pilots. In this case if the pilots drag it out Delta will take more AC from them. This puts a tremendous amount of pressure on both management and pilots. Whether a labor group can stike if a judge imposes terms is not clear. It is simply a legal theory that has not been tested in court yet. The fact that no one has tested it tells me labor lawyers are afraid they will lose.

In the 05 Mesaba BK it appears that MAIR, after they realized the jets were gone and they were left with 50 SF3's and an expensive labor agreement, was seriously considering closing the doors on Mesaba. If Anderson (NWA) hadn't decided to 'go to the well' one more time on a 'dress it up and sell it IPO' things could have been much different for Mesaba pilots.

Each BK is unique. There are multiple players with different objectives. When NW entered BK in 05 they pushed Mesaba into BK by not paying them what they contractualy owed them. They did not do that to PCL. Why? Mesaba had a year old labor agreement with the highest rates in the industry and most restrictive/expensive reserve language in the industry.

In Skywests/ASA's agreement with Delta there is language specifing that their labor rates can be no higher than a certain percentage of the cheapest operator Delta has a contract with. Both ASA and Republic are well into section 6 negotiations. Delta will be calling all the shots in the PCL BK. What will their objecive be and what are they willing to risk or pay for that objective? For Delta it has nothing to do with 'fair or right', it is simply a bullies power play. What will the remaining PCL pilots be willing to accept?

 

[xjhawk]

I agree with you on many of the points you made. Delta will be calling the shots, that is why they provided DIP financing. But I disagree with you on the fate of mesaba and NWAs (Anderson) actions and plan then and now. The Bankruptcy of Mesaba was planned as was the removal of the Avros (to $$$) and the reduction of the labor costs. I would suspect that the acquisition was either planned or a side benefit as they did not have to pay profits to MAIR for managing Mesaba (remember the $600 million they had in the bank?).

There is another plan in the works but first they need to do a couple things to make their plan work. I do not know what the plan is but I can see that it is leaning in the direction of being a Delta show.

The way I see it there are some key factors involved here. here are some

Amazing the timing of Delta trying so hard to get their pilots to renegotiate their contract and scope a couple years before its up. I would not be surprised if Delta creates a new company with "b scale paid delta seniority pilots" for the 76 and 100 seat aircraft. of course Delta pilots would think they are doing regional pilots a favor-but a huge pay increase just may make the giving up scope bitter pill go down easier-but after all-those B scale pilots are delta pilots-too bad they are seat locked for ____ so many years.

This bankruptcy is going to push a number of factors that Delta wants

They want controld-heck they are providing DIp financing so they are in a place to guide the bankruptcy

They are getting United and US Airways out of the picture

Pilots will be among the lowest paid in the industry

When the 200 numbers are slashed, there will be a lot of pilots ready to man teh 100 seat positions and will be happy to be at year 1 pay instead of on the street (those senior 20 year guys will not be as happy)-

Unlikely? If you create a B scale delta seniority pilot seat locked for X amount of time, and those pilots are forced to "flow" or lose their job and take year 1 pay-how much money would that save Delta?

I am not saying this will happen-but something along these lines will occur. One thing is for certain-this has Andersons dirty little finger prints all over it. and they will make a lot of money, they will get some relief on 100 seaters and they will come out of this smelling like roses

 

[NWaviator]

Well stated and thoughtout. Now if that all happens is up in the air but you do have a point.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I agree with you on many of the points you made. Delta will be calling the shots, that is why they provided DIP financing. But I disagree with you on the fate of mesaba and NWAs (Anderson) actions and plan then and now. The Bankruptcy of Mesaba was planned as was the removal of the Avros (to $$$) and the reduction of the labor costs. I would suspect that the acquisition was either planned or a side benefit as they did not have to pay profits to MAIR for managing Mesaba (remember the $600 million they had in the bank?).

There is another plan in the works but first they need to do a couple things to make their plan work. I do not know what the plan is but I can see that it is leaning in the direction of being a Delta show.

The way I see it there are some key factors involved here. here are some

Amazing the timing of Delta trying so hard to get their pilots to renegotiate their contract and scope a couple years before its up. I would not be surprised if Delta creates a new company with "b scale paid delta seniority pilots" for the 76 and 100 seat aircraft. of course Delta pilots would think they are doing regional pilots a favor-but a huge pay increase just may make the giving up scope bitter pill go down easier-but after all-those B scale pilots are delta pilots-too bad they are seat locked for ____ so many years.

This bankruptcy is going to push a number of factors that Delta wants

They want controld-heck they are providing DIp financing so they are in a place to guide the bankruptcy

They are getting United and US Airways out of the picture

Pilots will be among the lowest paid in the industry

When the 200 numbers are slashed, there will be a lot of pilots ready to man teh 100 seat positions and will be happy to be at year 1 pay instead of on the street (those senior 20 year guys will not be as happy)-

Unlikely? If you create a B scale delta seniority pilot seat locked for X amount of time, and those pilots are forced to "flow" or lose their job and take year 1 pay-how much money would that save Delta?

I am not saying this will happen-but something along these lines will occur. One thing is for certain-this has Andersons dirty little finger prints all over it. and they will make a lot of money, they will get some relief on 100 seaters and they will come out of this smelling like roses

Yes but you are forgetting the most important part, how will the mainline pilots blame the regional guys for this?

 

[xjhawk]

ha! good point. Sorry for the spelling and grammar errors. I wrote that while juggling feeding my kids lunch and cleaning up after them. I do not know what will happen through all of this but I am assuming given Andersons past performance in these matters he will come out on top. The coincidence of Delta and their pilots negotiating scope and Detlas actions in this bankruptcy are fishy. I must say, that it may just be getting rid of the 200's as they did the Saabs. That would be even worse for Pinnacle pilots.

 

[titans10]

The 200's will be parked as the leases expired.

 

[RJLoser]

The 200's will be parked as the leases expired.

When is that?

 

[i fly boxes]

I agree with you on many of the points you made. Delta will be calling the shots, that is why they provided DIP financing. But I disagree with you on the fate of mesaba and NWAs (Anderson) actions and plan then and now. The Bankruptcy of Mesaba was planned as was the removal of the Avros (to $$$) and the reduction of the labor costs. I would suspect that the acquisition was either planned or a side benefit as they did not have to pay profits to MAIR for managing Mesaba (remember the $600 million they had in the bank?).

There is another plan in the works but first they need to do a couple things to make their plan work. I do not know what the plan is but I can see that it is leaning in the direction of being a Delta show.

The way I see it there are some key factors involved here. here are some

Amazing the timing of Delta trying so hard to get their pilots to renegotiate their contract and scope a couple years before its up. I would not be surprised if Delta creates a new company with "b scale paid delta seniority pilots" for the 76 and 100 seat aircraft. of course Delta pilots would think they are doing regional pilots a favor-but a huge pay increase just may make the giving up scope bitter pill go down easier-but after all-those B scale pilots are delta pilots-too bad they are seat locked for ____ so many years.

This bankruptcy is going to push a number of factors that Delta wants

They want controld-heck they are providing DIp financing so they are in a place to guide the bankruptcy

They are getting United and US Airways out of the picture

Pilots will be among the lowest paid in the industry

When the 200 numbers are slashed, there will be a lot of pilots ready to man teh 100 seat positions and will be happy to be at year 1 pay instead of on the street (those senior 20 year guys will not be as happy)-

Unlikely? If you create a B scale delta seniority pilot seat locked for X amount of time, and those pilots are forced to "flow" or lose their job and take year 1 pay-how much money would that save Delta?

I am not saying this will happen-but something along these lines will occur. One thing is for certain-this has Andersons dirty little finger prints all over it. and they will make a lot of money, they will get some relief on 100 seaters and they will come out of this smelling like roses

This is it, XJ hawk gets it. Im not going to go as far to say This is exactly what is going to happen but look at what is happening, look at what we are now an all dci fleet and look at what is happening at Delta. We are going to become the ultimate pawn, it may lead to better things for us down the road but will come with a price - keep your job but here you go...........

 

[777forever]

This is it, XJ hawk gets it. Im not going to go as far to say This is exactly what is going to happen but look at what is happening, look at what we are now an all dci fleet and look at what is happening at Delta. We are going to become the ultimate pawn, it may lead to better things for us down the road but will come with a price - keep your job but here you go...........

I dont think this is remotely close to what will happen. Delta didnt provide DIP financing because they wanted to be in control. They provided financing so they wouldnt suddenly lose 200 aircraft from the operation when PNCL ran out of cash to operate. They had little choice

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[i fly boxes]

For pinnacle to give up all of their q400s and not even try to operate them anywhere else tells me that delta was in on it to not only help pinnacle but help their situation. Xj hawk and I could be way off but delta probably wants to get rid of 50 seat aircraft and I am thinking that they could have announced a slow wind down of pinnacle operations or transfered their 900s to another carrier. Instead they gave us an extention to 2022. They want us around for some reason. I will admit that it is still possible for them to totally screw us and shut us down but I think a different scenario will play out

 

[Clutch]

You guys gonna lower the bar?

 

[777forever]

For pinnacle to give up all of their q400s and not even try to operate them anywhere else tells me that delta was in on it to not only help pinnacle but help their situation. Xj hawk and I could be way off but delta probably wants to get rid of 50 seat aircraft and I am thinking that they could have announced a slow wind down of pinnacle operations or transfered their 900s to another carrier. Instead they gave us an extention to 2022. They want us around for some reason. I will admit that it is still possible for them to totally screw us and shut us down but I think a different scenario will play out

Pinnacle gave up the Q400 because it was unprofitable and United was unwilling to negotiate not because Delta was on it. Pinnacle is also giving up the unprofitable ATL Delta CRJ900 flying. The only profitable flying was the CR200 and Mesaba CR9 flying and those rates have been reduced in exchange for the DIP.

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[PCL_128]

It was not resolved when Mesaba went through the first time,and I am not sure if it ever has been. IF the company does use the 1113c to void the contract and impose terms there is the posibility of immediate release under the railway labor act for self help (strike).

Unfortunately, that has already been settled by the courts. Labor groups do not have the right to strike if a bankruptcy court grants a company's 1113(c) motion. This was resolved in the NWA flight attendant case in 2007. The flight attendants appealed the decision to a federal appeals court, but the appeals court upheld the lower court's ruling.

 

[Flyer1015]

Unfortunately, that has already been settled by the courts. Labor groups do not have the right to strike if a bankruptcy court grants a company's 1113(c) motion. This was resolved in the NWA flight attendant case in 2007. The flight attendants appealed the decision to a federal appeals court, but the appeals court upheld the lower court's ruling.

Exactly. A CBA and ALPA are completely useless once you're in bankruptcy and 1113 is filed.

 

[PCL_128]

Exactly. A CBA and ALPA are completely useless once you're in bankruptcy and 1113 is filed.

No, not useless, but definitely handicapped.

 

[CRJ200pilot]

I am sorry for all my friends and family at 9e... Please fly safe

 

[i fly boxes]

Pinnacle gave up the Q400 because it was unprofitable and United was unwilling to negotiate not because Delta was on it. Pinnacle is also giving up the unprofitable ATL Delta CRJ900 flying. The only profitable flying was the CR200 and Mesaba CR9 flying and those rates have been reduced in exchange for the DIP.

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In my opinion which has been wrong before, you don't just give away the airplane. Those q400s will end up at another carrier which will charge united more than colgan was. So therefore it's not that united didn't want the q maybe it's the colgan crash I don't know but the delta 900s have to go back with the q's because of the agreement pinnacle signed with bombardier if one goes back they both do When they go back it's possible delta could re lease them to pinnacle

 

[i fly boxes]

The 200's will be parked as the leases expired.

I love when people throw out random info with no source

 

[silver02ex]

I might be missing something but where are some you guys getting the 2022 contract extention on the 200's

 

[Flyer1015]

No, not useless, but definitely handicapped.

Yeah but useless for all practical purposes.