Pinnacle Files for Bankruptcy

[8sugarsugar]

Buy what? you don't own anything, it's all leased or owned by DL.

Hopefully this will be another warning to those companies that play "fast and loose" with the bidding of contracts with hopes of sweeter things to come.

Seriously, I don't understand, can someone explain this to me...Okay, Pinnacle doesn't own the planes, doesn't buy fuel, doesn't sell tickets, etc etc....So how can a company go bankrupt that has a fixed cost and a fixed revenue source?????

Are they not just a certificate that has a building and a workforce?

 

[Inconceivable]

Short answer: shenanigans.

Delta agreed to pay training costs related to the acquisition of Mesaba. Delta then reneged.

The beginning, end, and middle of the crisis at hand has been orchestrated by Delta. Just as NWA did with Mesaba, parts of the operation were more profitable than others but the entire corporation was net profitable. The crisis only emerged when Delta stopped paying their bills.

This entire process is a fraud being perpetrated on the bankruptcy court where bankruptcy is caused by the same party that becomes the DIP by applying minimal liquidity and recapitalizing existing unsecured debt. This same party is the sole beneficiary of renegotiated agreements as the only client of the new Pinnacle.

What you are seeing is a wealth transfer: from the shareholders and employees of Pinnacle to the shareholders of Delta. Or legalized theft, you choose.

 

[Flyer1015]

Why should Delta have to pay for Colgan's US Air side of the operation? There's a reason they reneged.

 

[Inconceivable]

Why should Delta have to pay for Colgan's US Air side of the operation? There's a reason they reneged.

Because that's what they agreed to. Are you really going to tell me that the executives at DAL "forgot" to do their due diligence? LOL

 

[Flyer1015]

Because that's what they agreed to. Are you really going to tell me that the executives at DAL "forgot" to do their due diligence? LOL

NO. Delta NEVER agreed to pay Pinnacle to retrain Colgan guys. Remember, Pinnacle *chose* to voluntarily close up the BOS Saab base and retrain them elsewhere to improve our staffing situation. Delta had no part in that, nor should they have to pay for the US Air side of things. Delta's only agreement was to pay for retraining associated with the MESABA DISPLACEMENTS coming off the Delta Saabs being parked! They will not, and should not, give one dime of their money to help retrain any Colgan pilots. Delta is not going to help subsidize a Colgan pilot's movement to make some more money.

 

[suupah]

NO. Delta NEVER agreed to pay Pinnacle to retrain Colgan guys. Remember, Pinnacle *chose* to voluntarily close up the BOS Saab base and retrain them elsewhere to improve our staffing situation. Delta had no part in that, nor should they have to pay for the US Air side of things. Delta's only agreement was to pay for retraining associated with the MESABA DISPLACEMENTS coming off the Delta Saabs being parked! They will not, and should not, give one dime of their money to help retrain any Colgan pilots. Delta is not going to help subsidize a Colgan pilot's movement to make some more money.

So did they pay for any of the mesaba displacements?

 

[mesaba13]

At the time Delta sold they airline they didn't know there would be a single seniority list?

 

[Flyer1015]

At the time Delta sold they airline they didn't know there would be a single seniority list?

No. And why would they? Compass was sold at the same time and they still have separate lists. The one-list thing was all 100% union led in order to prevent whipsaw. Ironically, this one list will actually destroy what little unity the pilot groups had. In fact, the entire process has destroyed unity rather than create it. All 3 unions tore each other apart in SLI negotiations and then there was the appealing of the DOH issue at Pinnacle. After all that BS, there was a distinct "us versus them" attitude that prevailed in the pilot groups, and the 9E union tried to do what it could to try and become the surviving union. They failed. Now, with the upcoming fleet parking, all 3 pilot groups will want what's best for their own interests.

Also, the 9E union agreeing to merge their list with another carrier that was shrinking was a stupid move. The 9E pilots took the brunt force of the Mesaba Saab cuts, as the Mesaba pilots made their way into the Pinnacle left and right seats. "They brought the contract" and "everyone is brining something to this merger!" were said and used over and over again. Well, the contract is about to be tossed in bankruptcy and Colgan's Queen Q fleet (and the Saabs) are gonna be parked. With one list, Pinnacle will yet again take a huge blow for the entire loss of the colgan operation. The lists should never have been combined. If they had never been combined, Mesaba would have furloughed and downgraded their pilots as a result of the Saabs being parked. Pinnacle and Colgan unaffected. Next, with the news of the BK and Colgan disappearing, the entire Colgan pilot group would have been furloughed once the airline stopped operating. Pinnacle pilots unaffected. The ONLY thing that would have affected the 9E pilots if they had their own list would have been the loss of 16 CRJ-900s. That loss would have hurt 9E pilots, but at least it would have been everyone on the 9E list. Instead, you got the union fighting each other and shoving the one-list idea down everyone's throats despite objections. The 9E union should have (for that time being) not agreed to merging one seniority list when it was a known fact that 30+ aircraft were being parked at one other airline. Pinnacle's old management deserves blame for where Pinnacle is today, but the plight of 9E-only pilots falls squarely on the 9E union for making horrible decisions that have gotten to where 9E is today.

 

[bri5150]

So you think that Pinnacle holdings should have ran 3 completely seperate companies? What would have happened if Mesaba would have gotten those 700's that went to GoJets? There would have been no backlash from the Pinnacle pilots about why Mesaba got those? Remember, no hind sight allowed. There is no way to know what was about to happen to Colgan. I am sure the quote would have been "they got those 700's on our profits!!"

 

[FOrever85]

No. And why would they? Compass was sold at the same time and they still have separate lists. The one-list thing was all 100% union led in order to prevent whipsaw. Ironically, this one list will actually destroy what little unity the pilot groups had. In fact, the entire process has destroyed unity rather than create it. All 3 unions tore each other apart in SLI negotiations and then there was the appealing of the DOH issue at Pinnacle. After all that BS, there was a distinct "us versus them" attitude that prevailed in the pilot groups, and the 9E union tried to do what it could to try and become the surviving union. They failed. Now, with the upcoming fleet parking, all 3 pilot groups will want what's best for their own interests.

Also, the 9E union agreeing to merge their list with another carrier that was shrinking was a stupid move. The 9E pilots took the brunt force of the Mesaba Saab cuts, as the Mesaba pilots made their way into the Pinnacle left and right seats. "They brought the contract" and "everyone is brining something to this merger!" were said and used over and over again. Well, the contract is about to be tossed in bankruptcy and Colgan's Queen Q fleet (and the Saabs) are gonna be parked. With one list, Pinnacle will yet again take a huge blow for the entire loss of the colgan operation. The lists should never have been combined. If they had never been combined, Mesaba would have furloughed and downgraded their pilots as a result of the Saabs being parked. Pinnacle and Colgan unaffected. Next, with the news of the BK and Colgan disappearing, the entire Colgan pilot group would have been furloughed once the airline stopped operating. Pinnacle pilots unaffected. The ONLY thing that would have affected the 9E pilots if they had their own list would have been the loss of 16 CRJ-900s. That loss would have hurt 9E pilots, but at least it would have been everyone on the 9E list. Instead, you got the union fighting each other and shoving the one-list idea down everyone's throats despite objections. The 9E union should have (for that time being) not agreed to merging one seniority list when it was a known fact that 30+ aircraft were being parked at one other airline. Pinnacle's old management deserves blame for where Pinnacle is today, but the plight of 9E-only pilots falls squarely on the 9E union for making horrible decisions that have gotten to where 9E is today.

Hey general lee jr., Why are you still complaining about this? You don't even work here anymore.

We are and always will be NWA's/Delta's bit%^.
Inconceivable has it spot on. This whole thing doesn't have anything to do with Delta retraining Colgan pilots, separate seniority lists, or any of the other crap your talking about. Delta obviously doesn't care about giving money to regionals that fly for competing carriers, except for us for some reason.

Oh wait, I remember now. It's because Delta makes a sh*t load of money off of doing this to us. They make an already cheap product cheaper. They can slash aircraft, building, and vendor leases, and undo labor contracts. They get cheaper contracted regional flying, that they control, and make money doing it!

Someone quick, what is 12.5% interest on $74,285,000.

Not only that, but Delta also gets paid penalties for 9E parking 900's and they can park 200's.(Personally I don't think they will yet)
All of this comes right from the court filing.

It is a rinse and repeat of the last bankruptcy on a much larger scale.
In the end, we will once again be a wholly controlled regional of Delta. Like usual, Delta already has something planned for us.

I'm not even going to waste my time pointing out all the other things you have got wrong in this thread. If you want, keep pretending that 9E's union doing something else would have changed things. News flash; It wouldn't have. If anything you should be happy, this was obviously the kick in the head you needed to get out.

The last thing this pilot group needs right now is some whiny, know it all trying to re-divide the pilot group. The ones that work here are bad enough, we really don't need one that doesn't even work here!

Congrats, now move on, and don't look back.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

This is looking like a blatant repeat of the shafting Mesaba took at the hands of NWA in 05.... Delta is pulling the strings on this whole thing. They have plenty to gain buy jerking Pinnacle inc around. They had basically nothing to gain by doing so with compass. And nobody would even sniff taking Comair. If you think nobody at Pinnacle knew this screw job was coming I will show you a completely incompetent management that has no business even throwing bags or cleaning tray tables. (I don't think anyone here was actually that clueless, though I think Menke may well have walked into a minefield with very little clue) I am thinking that the Mesaba management has been put in place not so much to clean up Pinnalce Inc but more so to play the bankruptcy (shamruptcy part 2) and Delta's bonus is messing with a still merging United in the process. The only difference is this time I don't see any great light at the end of this train... Just an unfinished tunnel to crash into. (yes that was intentional)

 

[Flyer1015]

So you think that Pinnacle holdings should have ran 3 completely seperate companies? What would have happened if Mesaba would have gotten those 700's that went to GoJets? There would have been no backlash from the Pinnacle pilots about why Mesaba got those? Remember, no hind sight allowed. There is no way to know what was about to happen to Colgan. I am sure the quote would have been "they got those 700's on our profits!!"

If Pinnacle holdings ran all 3 separate companies, it would have been better for Pinnacle Inc. Who knows if Mesaba got 700s. Personally, I wouldn't have cared, if anything, I'd be happy for them because that would help cushion the loss from the Saabs. And no, I don't give them backlash, just as I didn't give Colgan pilots any backlash when they got Qs from Pinnacle Corp's money. And for the record, I knew after 3407 that Colgan would have been done for. There's been too much industry damage, brand damage, and the Saabs are old dinosaurs headed to the desert. The Q's demise was less predictable, but then again, I'm not surprised. Let me put it this way: I was one of the few that called out our union for the BS line we were fed: "everybody brings something to this merger." I knew the contract was just one BK filing away from being null and its benefits devastated, and I knew that Colgan was headed south ever since the 3407 crash, despite the claims "colgan is bringing the prop model." BS. No one wants props these days, and especially not since 3407 near BUF.

 

[Flyer1015]

Hey general lee jr., Why are you still complaining about this? You don't even work here anymore.

We are and always will be NWA's/Delta's bit%^.
Inconceivable has it spot on. This whole thing doesn't have anything to do with Delta retraining Colgan pilots, separate seniority lists, or any of the other crap your talking about. Delta obviously doesn't care about giving money to regionals that fly for competing carriers, except for us for some reason.

Oh wait, I remember now. It's because Delta makes a sh*t load of money off of doing this to us. They make an already cheap product cheaper. They can slash aircraft, building, and vendor leases, and undo labor contracts. They get cheaper contracted regional flying, that they control, and make money doing it!

Someone quick, what is 12.5% interest on $74,285,000.

Not only that, but Delta also gets paid penalties for 9E parking 900's and they can park 200's.(Personally I don't think they will yet)
All of this comes right from the court filing.

It is a rinse and repeat of the last bankruptcy on a much larger scale.
In the end, we will once again be a wholly controlled regional of Delta. Like usual, Delta already has something planned for us.

I'm not even going to waste my time pointing out all the other things you have got wrong in this thread. If you want, keep pretending that 9E's union doing something else would have changed things. News flash; It wouldn't have. If anything you should be happy, this was obviously the kick in the head you needed to get out.

The last thing this pilot group needs right now is some whiny, know it all trying to re-divide the pilot group. The ones that work here are bad enough, we really don't need one that doesn't even work here!

Congrats, now move on, and don't look back.

The one list, the mess of the 11-09 vacancy, and all unnecessary training events were directly affecting the company's bottom line. That is all union fault. The management fault was for bidding bad contracts for the Q, Saab, and ATL 900 flying. Actually, the Saab flying was profitable at Colgan until the JCBA was signed. Once that was signed, the fate of the Saabs was sealed.

Undo labor contracts? ASA and Skywest's compensation and QOL package is far greater than Pinnacle's new JCBA, and they operate a similar amount of -200 aircraft. What makes 9E any more special than the others? Skywest flies for United Express and US Air express too. Pinnacle's major problem was cash at hand. Cash flow ran very low, and a huge part of that problem was no payment from Delta for the retraining costs. Pinnacle was expecting nearly 18 million and they got zero. Delta saw the fact that many of our training events were simply colgan guys being forced out of BOS to improve our staffing on the RJ side. In fact, Pinnacle management thought they could be so sneaky, they covered the mesaba saab losses in the same displacement as voluntarily closing the Colgan BOS base to spread those guys into the jets. This was before 11-09. Once 11-09 came out, a majority of movement was all Colgan bidding for higher pay. Delta was not going to have any part in that, and said no to paying training costs. And while the business decisions for contract bidding is something the unoin has no control over (that is a solely a management function), you are mistaken if you think your union's actions haven't led you to where you are today.

 

[xjhawk]

oh flyer. how wrong you are again. and again. Three separate companies? That alone would have broke the company. Yes I guess Colgan would have been a sinking ship and the loss of the Q's would have not touched the Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots. The loss of the Saabs at Mesaba would have stung but those extra pilots and its superior management team and pilot culture would have gotten another contract to fly more planes somewhere-if not-the remaining pilots including myself would have been better off than we are now.

Now for the kicker- how would have pinnacle pilots been effected? With that management team and pilot culture Pinnacle would have self destructed. Delta would have been easily within its rights to continue pulling the plug on its flying because of poor performance. The no show rate on its new hire classes would have continued to be bad and then, yes, Delta would have pulled more flying. But in your little world your FO's would have been upgrading and living the high life as new jet captains. But I am sure by that time Phil would have ruined the dream world of Pinnacle.

 

[Flyer1015]

oh flyer. how wrong you are again. and again. Three separate companies? That alone would have broke the company. Yes I guess Colgan would have been a sinking ship and the loss of the Q's would have not touched the Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots. The loss of the Saabs at Mesaba would have stung but those extra pilots and its superior management team and pilot culture would have gotten another contract to fly more planes somewhere-if not-the remaining pilots including myself would have been better off than we are now.

Now for the kicker- how would have pinnacle pilots been effected? With that management team and pilot culture Pinnacle would have self destructed. Delta would have been easily within its rights to continue pulling the plug on its flying because of poor performance. The no show rate on its new hire classes would have continued to be bad and then, yes, Delta would have pulled more flying. But in your little world your FO's would have been upgrading and living the high life as new jet captains. But I am sure by that time Phil would have ruined the dream world of Pinnacle.

The above is nullified when you consider the selloff of Compass. TSA holdings owns TSA, GoJets, and Compass. All 3 separate groups, 3 separate lists, and 2 of those airlines are doing very well. Next example, ASA and XJet.

Your example is also speculative and assumes Mesaba would have found extra flying outside of Delta. The same could be said for Pinnacle, and under the old contract, 9E could have done it cheaper. Not to mention, Pinnacle will just do what they did in 2007 to get pilots: free hotel in training, $400 per week in training (or even more), a $750 bonus for completing IOE, and $500 bonus for staying 6 months. On top of that, Pinnacle could give a $5000 sign on bonus like Republic. That would attract enough people to fill our desired amounts needed this year, and as usual ALPA would file against the company just like they did in 2007 when the company decided to pay out these bonuses and incentives to newhires.

As for your FO comment, 9E FOs don't need a full indoc newhire training like your Mesaba and Colgan counterparts. Pinnacle needed Captains badly, and upgrading current 9E FOs would have been the quickest, most cheapest, and most effective way to do it. I can't even begin to describe just how messy 11-09 was and how many people were sitting at home collecting pay, some of them bypass pay (which is complete BS).

 

[xjhawk]

so you are telling me that while delta was taking planes from 9E before they forced Pinnacle to buy Mesaba that they would have awarded new flying to Pinnacle even though they were taking planes away from them for poor performance? Laughable what if scenario.

It really does not matter. The only people at mesaba who are not worse off than they were if we were independent of 9E are the top 25%. But even they do not like how the company is being run into the ground. The chances of losing their jobs for management ineptness and terrible company culture is greater now than ever before. Losing the Saabs is far better scenario than losing the saabs, getting screwed on SLI (by ALPA's Block), having people with less than 1/2 my longevity get a better seniority because they had as ALPA and Block saw them as having a better career potential than us! wow, so that does not say much for our ALPA financial experts huh? Okay back to my list-losing the Q's, losing company 900's, losing colgan Saabs. Then losing XJ reserve language. dealing with Shell in crew scheduling, pay issues, oh and then the worst thing we might have to deal with is listening to guys like Pinnacle Pete cry about losing 3 months of seniority when won the lottery on seniority and contract compared to a 8-12 year captain at XJ-oh and hearing about all the poor 9E FO's who lost upgrades and its all XJ's fault. Guess what dude? You were losing aircraft before all this? XJ FO's got it in the pants just as bad as 9E ones.

But in the end we can't look back and most at Mesaba are not blaming the 9E pilots as we are hear 9E pilots blame xj pilots. We are looking for our union leadership to do its best to get us the best deal in the bankruptcy and the only way to do that is to stand together. That being said I know a lot of us would be better off if they split the lists and furloughed out of seniority order. But that would set a precedent that I nor ALPA would like to see set. Imagine if they closed MEM or MSP? Oh, looks like those pilots would be gone too. that would be a real easy way to get rid of senior pilots.

Oh and if they are allowed to furlough out of seniority order to save on training costs, guess what? Those MEM 900 pilots would be on the street too. All to save a buck right? Its a bad idea.

Now if they sell off the Q's there is a provision in the contract that the pilots go with the planes. I am sure the attorneys at 9E are looking hard at that. That would save a lot of training costs.

 

[coonass]

Guys lets stop it. Some of us are acting like children right now. Am I pissed about how everything turn out, "Hell yes". Can the Alpa suck my nuts, "Hell Yes". Am I supprised that the union screwed me up the cornhole over several things the last few years, "NO". The SLI will not be changed, the Saabs and Q are gone, and pilots are going to be on the streets without jobs soon. Most of us need to grow a pair of nuts and put on some big boy pants. If that statment upset you in some fashion then most likely the above statement is for you. Look people, the fight is with Pinnacle Corp not with each other. This bankrupcy is going to get ugly and lets not fight among ourselves. Has anyone seen the new delta agreement with 9E. Lets nut up and do what we need to, and not give the company foder to give the judge.

P.S. Go ahead and tear my statment apart. I really dont give a sh_t. My spelling sucks, and I wasn't an English Major, so kiss my ass.

 

[Simon Says]

FYI:

I don't know about Pinnacle management, but I know for a fact that during Mesaba's bankruptcy these message boards were brought up in negotiations. I suspect they are read regularly, not for entertainment, but for court room fodder by our management.

A word to the wise...you are not anonomys on these boards. Any sort of comment of job actions is great fodder in court and awfully emberrassing when your name is associated with your posts.

This is why T.W., our MEC Chair strictly forbids anybody associated with the union from posting on these. If you remeber, when Pinnacle and Mesaba were seperate you saw union members posting on the Pinnacle side but not on the Mesaba side, but now you don't see any union members posting.

Would the mods please back me up on this?

 

[jynxyjericho]

FYI:

I don't know about Pinnacle management, but I know for a fact that during Mesaba's bankruptcy these message boards were brought up in negotiations. I suspect they are read regularly, not for entertainment, but for court room fodder by our management.

A word to the wise...you are not anonomys on these boards. Any sort of comment of job actions is great fodder in court and awfully emberrassing when your name is associated with your posts.

This is why T.W., our MEC Chair strictly forbids anybody associated with the union from posting on these. If you remeber, when Pinnacle and Mesaba were seperate you saw union members posting on the Pinnacle side but not on the Mesaba side, but now you don't see any union members posting.

Would the mods please back me up on this?

Not a mod, but backing you up anyway.

The "My rep told me we are going to ask for this or bust" ie. Comair wages or strike can lead to some embarrassing moments if (while in negotiations in good faith) the jerk management team shows the strategy to the negotiator.

Everyone wants to be "the guy in the know". Those who know don't speak, and those who speak don't know. Especially if you talk a lot on the boards, yet at every BOD meeting or LEC meeting you play angry birds or post on flight info instead of listening.

Things will happen slowly, they will get worse, then they will get better. If you hear something about our strategy for negotiations keep it to yourself for the good of the whole pilot group.

 

[Afraid to Fly]

The rapid unionization of Colgan, JCBA, Integrated seniority list and compressed realignment were all done in short-order. And while I appreciate their zeal and motivation. Our equally niave and inexperirnced ALPA representatives were drawn down the current road to ruin by a very shrewd Delta board of directors. This has been in the works for a long time, and wouldn't be surprised if PNCL Corp. didn"t cook the books in order to get it past our astute ALPA financial experts. Careful what you as ask for...we got it alright plus interest...

Huh? If there was no JCBA and integrated seniority list ALL the CJC Pilots would be facing the unemployment lines like the CJC FA's are facing.

Furthermore, the Q400 Contract was what really caused the Chapter 11 filing. Why would Delta help Pinnacle out to finance the Q400 Operation?