Pinnacle Files for Bankruptcy

[Airscrew]

Huh? If there was no JCBA and integrated seniority list ALL the CJC Pilots would be facing the unemployment lines like the CJC FA's are facing.

Furthermore, the Q400 Contract was what really caused the Chapter 11 filing. Why would Delta help Pinnacle out to finance the Q400 Operation?

Man... That's a good question bro. I hadn't thought of that one.

 

[jetracer5]

Just want to pass along that if any Pinnacle guys are looking to jump ship Bombardier has been hiring corporate shuttle pilots like crazy. CL65 Type preferred. Good luck to everybody at Pinnacle.

 

[xjhawk]

A couple of things. I was chastising Flyer-not even a pinnacle pilot for his wrong idiotic ideas and misguided views of the past. If you read in my statement, I think we need to stand together and fight as one-just as Mesaba did in the last bankruptcy (sham number two we are in right?). He moved on from 9E so maybe he should move on from these boards as well and stay with his Virgin boards. Flyer-seriously you are not helping. keep your opinions to your own company.

As for the boards, I have never said anything I would not say to any person in a crewroom, alpa meeting, nor in a bankruptcy courtroom. I am very sure others cannot say that they hold themselves to a standard as they hide behind their monniker. Our union will be fighting against the will of Delta, the bias labor laws the courts bring to the game, and a divided pilot group facing an uncertain future.

Richard Anderson forced Mesaba into bankruptcy the last time and I am sure he had a plan to use bankruptcy to cheapen, aquire, grow, and then profit from Mesaba. he had hurdles that he had to get by-get rid of Mair holdings (United contract), cheapen the labor price and scare the pilots into accepting their fate (loss of contract and A/C in bankruptcy), Get relief from NWA pilots by createing Compass and calling those positions "NWA seats" and creating a flow. He effectively increased his 76 seat cheap lift. What will he do that is comprable? Create a B scale maybe? Move all the 900's to that B scale and order crj 1000's to fly along side of them? You must remember that the rumors are that Delta asked their pilots to enter in early negotiations. this is not a coincidence people!

 

[Flyer1015]

so you are telling me that while delta was taking planes from 9E before they forced Pinnacle to buy Mesaba that they would have awarded new flying to Pinnacle even though they were taking planes away from them for poor performance? Laughable what if scenario.

It really does not matter. The only people at mesaba who are not worse off than they were if we were independent of 9E are the top 25%. But even they do not like how the company is being run into the ground. The chances of losing their jobs for management ineptness and terrible company culture is greater now than ever before. Losing the Saabs is far better scenario than losing the saabs, getting screwed on SLI (by ALPA's Block), having people with less than 1/2 my longevity get a better seniority because they had as ALPA and Block saw them as having a better career potential than us! wow, so that does not say much for our ALPA financial experts huh? Okay back to my list-losing the Q's, losing company 900's, losing colgan Saabs. Then losing XJ reserve language. dealing with Shell in crew scheduling, pay issues, oh and then the worst thing we might have to deal with is listening to guys like Pinnacle Pete cry about losing 3 months of seniority when won the lottery on seniority and contract compared to a 8-12 year captain at XJ-oh and hearing about all the poor 9E FO's who lost upgrades and its all XJ's fault. Guess what dude? You were losing aircraft before all this? XJ FO's got it in the pants just as bad as 9E ones.

But in the end we can't look back and most at Mesaba are not blaming the 9E pilots as we are hear 9E pilots blame xj pilots. We are looking for our union leadership to do its best to get us the best deal in the bankruptcy and the only way to do that is to stand together. That being said I know a lot of us would be better off if they split the lists and furloughed out of seniority order. But that would set a precedent that I nor ALPA would like to see set. Imagine if they closed MEM or MSP? Oh, looks like those pilots would be gone too. that would be a real easy way to get rid of senior pilots.

Oh and if they are allowed to furlough out of seniority order to save on training costs, guess what? Those MEM 900 pilots would be on the street too. All to save a buck right? Its a bad idea.

Now if they sell off the Q's there is a provision in the contract that the pilots go with the planes. I am sure the attorneys at 9E are looking hard at that. That would save a lot of training costs.

This is a great post! Well said, good read.

As for the post directly above (#223), I'll agree you need to fight together and be on the same page, but lets not forget the past history that has gotten everyone to where they are today. It was Phil T's fault for the low $ bid on the ATL 900s and Q contract, but it was the union's misdoings that let the SLI turn out the way it did. Plus, it was the union's fault for not trying to unify early. Pretty hard to unify three groups when 2 of the 3 were fighting against our DOH as class date. That whole thing didn't go off to a good start. Plus, I think most XJ and 9E folks can acknowledge that there was DEFINITELY a push after the merger to ensure that one side became the "surviving MEC." If you were in-the-know at Pinnacle, you know this is true, and the same for Mesaba. In fact, one of the Mesaba posters in this thread (I won't name who - but he knows who he is) had a goal of trying to get enough 9E folks to see the good side of TW as opposed to CS. That was a wonderful goal, and certainly something the Mesaba pilots should have pushed for. Similarly, and I won't name names, but I was told by multiple pilots at 9E that "it was in our best interest to vote in CS as new MEC Chairman."

So with the checkered and rocky past history since the merger, the question is can people still come together and fight as one? I'd like to think so and hopefully, they can.

I'd like to move on, and I will, the second I get my $$$$$ that I'm still owed from them! But now that 9E declared BK, I got a letter in the mail stating that they have filed bankruptcy. My understanding is I'm now just a creditor who needs to take a number and get in line.

 

[Dutch]

... dealing with Shell in crew scheduling...

May well be the worst part of my job.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Pretty hard to unify three groups when 2 of the 3 were fighting against our DOH as class date. That whole thing didn't go off to a good start.

Hard for me to unify behind anything Pinnacle when Hunter was looking to staple my ass next to the bottom of the ISL.

Anyway, TW is MEC, moving along.

 

[DoinTime]

Anyway, TW is MEC, moving along.

TW works at the discretion of the MEC. Not the other way around.

 

[Flyer1015]

Hard for me to unify behind anything Pinnacle when Hunter was looking to staple my ass next to the bottom of the ISL.

Anyway, TW is MEC, moving along.

I'm right there with ya on that one. One of the dumbest/stupidest moves done primarily because the goal was to protect the senior 9E pilots. In the end, not only did it backfire in the face, but the senior 9E pilots got screwed almost 3 to 1 with Mesaba due to the -900 category.

 

[PCL_128]

Hard for me to unify behind anything Pinnacle when Hunter was looking to staple my ass next to the bottom of the ISL.

Anyway, TW is MEC, moving along.

JH was just doing his job. The job of PCL Merger Committee was to protect the seniority of the Pinnacle pilots. The job of your merger committee was to protect yours. In the end, the arbitrator decided. Holding a grudge against the other team's MC makes no sense.

 

[Flyer1015]

JH was just doing his job. The job of PCL Merger Committee was to protect the seniority of the Pinnacle pilots. The job of your merger committee was to protect yours. In the end, the arbitrator decided. Holding a grudge against the other team's MC makes no sense.

No he wasn't. Proposing a staple job to an arbitrator? That's insanity by any measureable means, especially considering the other two were very reasonable (DOH and relative). If the job of the PCL merger committee was to protect seniority, then they failed miserably! You NEVER protect seniority by proposing a STAPLE to a NEUTRAL ARBITRATOR! That is one of the dumbest most retarded mistakes you can make. Of course they'll hold a grudge against him, heck, there are 9E pilots that hold a grudge against him for what he proposed.

 

[PCL_128]

No he wasn't. Proposing a staple job to an arbitrator? That's insanity by any measureable means, especially considering the other two were very reasonable (DOH and relative). If the job of the PCL merger committee was to protect seniority, then they failed miserably! You NEVER protect seniority by proposing a STAPLE to a NEUTRAL ARBITRATOR! That is one of the dumbest most retarded mistakes you can make. Of course they'll hold a grudge against him, heck, there are 9E pilots that hold a grudge against him for what he proposed.

Do you really think it's appropriate for someone who has no experience in union work to call an experienced union rep's decisions "dumb, retarded, insane, etc."? If you disagree with the decisions of the MC, then there's nothing wrong with that, but the hyperbole and name calling isn't appropriate. Your MC had to make tough decisions. You didn't have to make those decisions. It always seems easier from the cheap seats than it is on the field.

Furthermore, their proposal wasn't a staple. It was a classic category and status integration. That's exactly what Bloch ended up using. He just used fewer categories than the PCL MC proposed.

Do I think the PCL MC's proposal was fair? Not really. But I don't think either of the other two proposals were fair, either. That's why you had an arbitrator. No side in an SLI dispute ever proposes an integration that is truly fair for the other side(s). Arbitrators have to find the middle ground, and they are better able to do so because they don't have the inherent biases that each pilot group has.

 

[jynxyjericho]

JH was just doing his job. The job of PCL Merger Committee was to protect the seniority of the Pinnacle pilots. The job of your merger committee was to protect yours. In the end, the arbitrator decided. Holding a grudge against the other team's MC makes no sense.

So you're saying JH proposal was fair and equitable? You don't, as stated below, and it defies logic and "sense" that you would defend it. A classless newb did his best to staple me and everyone under 705 and it was a waste of breath. It failed, JH is a failure.

Do you really think it's appropriate for someone who has no experience in union work to call an experienced union rep's decisions "dumb, retarded, insane, etc."? If you disagree with the decisions of the MC, then there's nothing wrong with that, but the hyperbole and name calling isn't appropriate. Your MC had to make tough decisions. You didn't have to make those decisions. It always seems easier from the cheap seats than it is on the field.

Furthermore, their proposal wasn't a staple. It was a classic category and status integration. That's exactly what Bloch ended up using. He just used fewer categories than the PCL MC proposed.

Do I think the PCL MC's proposal was fair? Not really. But I don't think either of the other two proposals were fair, either. That's why you had an arbitrator. No side in an SLI dispute ever proposes an integration that is truly fair for the other side(s). Arbitrators have to find the middle ground, and they are better able to do so because they don't have the inherent biases that each pilot group has.

The underlined statement is worthless and untrue. Nearly 300 pilots were going to be stapled, including me, thankfully Bloch saw some reason and I made out pretty fair, 2/3'rds down the list.

 

[Flyer1015]

Do you really think it's appropriate for someone who has no experience in union work to call an experienced union rep's decisions "dumb, retarded, insane, etc."? If you disagree with the decisions of the MC, then there's nothing wrong with that, but the hyperbole and name calling isn't appropriate.

In this particular case, yes, it's the decisions have been described accurately in many peoples' opinions. Do you have any idea how angry Colgan pilots got after it was announced what the Pinnacle's final viewpoint submitted to Bloch was? You cannot play the card of someone having experience in union work in this case. He (and I) had zero experience on seniority list integration with 3 airlines. It was his first time, like it would have been for any other pilot at Pinnacle.

Your MC had to make tough decisions. You didn't have to make those decisions. It always seems easier from the cheap seats than it is on the field.

IF I had known they were selecting a 2007 FO to be one of the three on the MC, I would have done it hands down. Instead, I never knew. Most people never knew, and we were just told who the group was. Usually, the whole 'buddy-buddy' thing still happens at the old 9E union. And if it was really that tough a decision, the MC should just have run an a polling (like Wilson) and gotten the pilot groups opinions on stapling Colgan.

Furthermore, their proposal wasn't a staple. It was a classic category and status integration. That's exactly what Bloch ended up using. He just used fewer categories than the PCL MC proposed.

It WAS a staple. Sure, it was category and status, but when your category is jet CA, jet FO, prop CA, and prop FO; with one airlie being solely props, then that becomes a STAPLE JOB! You are incorrect that bloch used fewer categories than what the PCL MC proposed. He actually used more. He had the -900, then Qs/-200s, then Saab, after those captains, it was RJ FOs, prop FOs, and constructive pilots.

Do I think the PCL MC's proposal was fair? Not really. But I don't think either of the other two proposals were fair, either. That's why you had an arbitrator. No side in an SLI dispute ever proposes an integration that is truly fair for the other side(s). Arbitrators have to find the middle ground, and they are better able to do so because they don't have the inherent biases that each pilot group has.

Huh? No other proposal was fair? How the hell was DOH not fair? DOH would have been the fairest method of all, and considering how this BS has now turned out, I wonder how many other Pinnacle pilots wish that we had done DOH. You are wrong in your statement that no side in a dispute proposes a fair proposal to the other side. The Mesaba suggestion of DOH was extremely fair! It compensates you for the time spent at your regional airline! The only pilots at 9E that would have been hurt by DOH would have been our super senior pilots, but they got screwed anyway in the CRJ-900 category by a near 3 to 1 ratio, starting with a Mesaba pilot. So the worst case happened! DOH would have been far better for both Mesaba and Pinnacle. Colgan would have been hurt by DOH, but cry me a freakin river, god forbid they have to serve more than 16 months before upgrading onto a Saab. For 3 regional airlines, DOH would have been the only fair way. The only prior precedent for more than 2 regionals merging together at once was Eagle's airlines coming together, and it was DOH.

And do you really think our arbitrator found fair ground? For someone who has done SLI before, I'm surprised he didn't acknowledge Pinnacle's low staffing snapshot of June 2010. He should have seen that versus April 2011 and taken that into account. He never did, and those quota numbers inherently hurt Pinnacle pilots to an extreme degree. Next, how do you explain Bloch's 5 year fence to keep Pinncale pilots from touching Saab captain seats? For EVERY other case, it was a quota restriction. Meaning, no one at Mesaba or Pinnacle could be awarded a Q captain unless Colgan maintained 193 Captain seats. Or no Pinnacle or Colgan pilot can be awarded a CRJ-900 unless mesaba had 272 captain seats. No Mesaba or Colgan pilot can be awarded CRJ-900 captain unless pinnacle has 100 CRJ-900 captain seats. ETC, etc, etc. But ONLY for the Saab 340 on the Colgan side did you have Pinnacle completely excluded. Pinnacle was fenced off the Saab for 5 years. RATIONALLY, HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT? He's a neutral arbitrator, surely, he must have justification? In the end, we never found out. IMO, it was Bloch's punishment agains the PCL MC for their irrational viewpoints the entire time that Saabs didn't exist and should be treated that way (hence the staple). There is NO other valid reason why Bloch would fence off Pinnacle pilots from bidding Saab Captain, while all other aircraft were simply quotas that had to be filled.

 

[Simon Says]

Do you really think it's appropriate for someone who has no experience in union work to call an experienced union rep's decisions "dumb, retarded, insane, etc."? If you disagree with the decisions of the MC, then there's nothing wrong with that, but the hyperbole and name calling isn't appropriate. Your MC had to make tough decisions. You didn't have to make those decisions. It always seems easier from the cheap seats than it is on the field.

Furthermore, their proposal wasn't a staple. It was a classic category and status integration. That's exactly what Bloch ended up using. He just used fewer categories than the PCL MC proposed.

Do I think the PCL MC's proposal was fair? Not really. But I don't think either of the other two proposals were fair, either. That's why you had an arbitrator. No side in an SLI dispute ever proposes an integration that is truly fair for the other side(s). Arbitrators have to find the middle ground, and they are better able to do so because they don't have the inherent biases that each pilot group has.

Yes they did propose Catagory and Class with Jet FO's being in a class above Prop Captains...Hence, staple or close to it.

But that is what the commitee thought was best. Integration was fair to the group in whole, but where the 9E guys got it in the shorts were the quotas AND the fact the quotas were made with a shortage of 200 Captains self inflected by their company.

 

[PCL_128]

.....

 

[i fly boxes]

Anyone thInk the first round of downgrades and f bombs is dropping tomorrow or next friday

 

[Smarta$$]

No he wasn't. Proposing a staple job to an arbitrator? That's insanity by any measureable means, especially considering the other two were very reasonable (DOH and relative). If the job of the PCL merger committee was to protect seniority, then they failed miserably! You NEVER protect seniority by proposing a STAPLE to a NEUTRAL ARBITRATOR! That is one of the dumbest most retarded mistakes you can make. Of course they'll hold a grudge against him, heck, there are 9E pilots that hold a grudge against him for what he proposed.

Agree... flyer finally said something truly intelligent, and is 100% correct. Period.

 

[xjhawk]

wow I would have to agree too. Great statement Flyer. I made the mistake today and I actually opened up the new seniority list and made another dumb decision. I looked at where I would be if it was a DOH integration. Yeah-700 numbers and 4 years ALPA's block stole from me. Okay-time to look to the future and find another job once some things on the home front are cleared up. Lets just hope the doors open up wide and a lot of hiring starts.

 

[profit]

No doubt. Should have been DOH.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Or LOA21