Pinnacle Delta Flow-through

[cougarblue]

will it ever happen?

 

[Smacktard]

will it ever happen?

Now that is funny.

 

[crj567]

Just ask Gen PeePants and ACL65.... They are very interested in a flow-down...... As much as they deride and bitch about your little "barbie jets," they would much rather fly one (and kick you out of a job) than hit the street themselves.

The only problem would be the flow-up part. I doubt you will see that happen in any sort of form which would help you out.

Guys like them are all too happy to talk about "brotherhood" and "team-spirit" when you can be helpful (like hiring all the furloughed DAL guys after 9-11,) but soon will forget any favors you have done for them.

-A "flow-up" would be a great favor-a "flow-though" would be out of the question.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Maybe... but for now the first 29 seats in every class (or soon to be when enough Compass pilots have their 30 months in) are already alotted to Compass and Mesaba.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

They will actually flow more that CPS. Up to 183 a year. That is about 100 more a year than CPS can flow.
As we start hiring they and CPS get first dibs.

Frankly, CRJ567 I will not need the flow down. This is not about me, no matter how you try to spin this. It is about getting everyone on the same page. You will see the offers for a CPSesque flow be presented in the coming months.

 

[Smarta$$]

They will actually flow more that CPS. Up to 183 a year. That is about 100 more a year than CPS can flow.
As we start hiring they and CPS get first dibs.

Frankly, CRJ567 I will not need the flow down. This is not about me, no matter how you try to spin this. It is about getting everyone on the same page. You will see the offers for a CPSesque flow be presented in the coming months.

Offers from who and to whom will they be made?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Speaking for myself and probably others, I don't want to see a all out flow. I would like to have some kind of filter, so to speak, to keep out some that don't belong. IE. the joe merchants, crj567, anyone associated with the rjdc. The black balling could be done by protecting thier seat/seniority if they choose not to flow or are NOT CHOSEN. Just to clarify, 90% are welcome and wanted, but to those 10%ers, I say we give them a big FU!!!

They will actually flow more that CPS. Up to 183 a year. That is about 100 more a year than CPS can flow.
As we start hiring they and CPS get first dibs.

Frankly, CRJ567 I will not need the flow down. This is not about me, no matter how you try to spin this. It is about getting everyone on the same page. You will see the offers for a CPSesque flow be presented in the coming months.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

They will actually flow more that CPS. Up to 183 a year. That is about 100 more a year than CPS can flow.
As we start hiring they and CPS get first dibs.

Frankly, CRJ567 I will not need the flow down. This is not about me, no matter how you try to spin this. It is about getting everyone on the same page. You will see the offers for a CPSesque flow be presented in the coming months.

Are you taking pot?

 

[hockeypilot44]

Speaking for myself and probably others, I don't want to see a all out flow. I would like to have some kind of filter, so to speak, to keep out some that don't belong. IE. the joe merchants, crj567, anyone associated with the rjdc. The black balling could be done by protecting thier seat/seniority if they choose not to flow or are NOT CHOSEN. Just to clarify, 90% are welcome and wanted, but to those 10%ers, I say we give them a big FU!!!

I agree. There are different standards interviewing for a major and a regional. There should be preferential interviews, but I think they should still have to interview. The Compass pilots and the 9 or 10 Mesaba pilots already have the flow in place so no interview for them, but I don't think we should just start letting regional pilots flow onto our list.

 

[doh]

I agree. There are different standards interviewing for a major and a regional. There should be preferential interviews, but I think they should still have to interview. The Compass pilots and the 9 or 10 Mesaba pilots already have the flow in place so no interview for them, but I don't think we should just start letting regional pilots flow onto our list.

This is exactly why the industry is so FUBAR. They are good enough to fly your customers, but not good enough to be part of the brand? If you believed in your product, you would not be looking for ways to dilute it.

 

[crj567]

This is exactly why the industry is so FUBAR. They are good enough to fly your customers, but not good enough to be part of the brand? If you believed in your product, you would not be looking for ways to dilute it.

Well put....

Just as importantly, some these guys base much of their self-esteem on the type and size of planes they fly. Gen PeePants and others think they are just so superior because they are entrusted with a fatter piece of metal.

-This mentality is the equivalent of what was very popular at major airlines a very short time ago, when regionals only flew turboprops "Those commuter guys just aren't qualified to fly a jet."

-Now that most "commuters" fly jets all over the place, these pompus fools just have to come up with a new justification for their egos.

-And ACL65, stop patronizing everyone here about a single list-you pulled up the ladder that got you where you are, and are just as invested in that ladder staying up as the Gen is.

(If you doubt this assertion, maybe you should ask yourself why you are always here on the regionals board stroking your ego.... Regionals were so "a few years back," and we all know they are not talked about politely at those PTC meetings of which you brag.) Best to stay well away from the riff-raff, sir......

-Gen Lee Jr....

 

[jmreii]

will it ever happen?

When piggies fly. Why don't you just go to delta and try getting an interview on your own. I know it's draconian ideal, but oh well.

 

[DrewBlows]

I agree. There are different standards interviewing for a major and a regional. There should be preferential interviews, but I think they should still have to interview. The Compass pilots and the 9 or 10 Mesaba pilots already have the flow in place so no interview for them, but I don't think we should just start letting regional pilots flow onto our list.

Hockey, I'm curious why you think it's important that regional pilots interview? The reason I ask is I just don't relate. I've never cared one way or another whom my employer hired. I figure the training program would take care of problem people, and have seen the process work out. Maybe you have a good reason that I'm not seeing, I'm interested in your reasoning.

Cheers

 

[General Lee]

Speaking for myself and probably others, I don't want to see a all out flow. I would like to have some kind of filter, so to speak, to keep out some that don't belong. IE. the joe merchants, crj567, anyone associated with the rjdc. The black balling could be done by protecting thier seat/seniority if they choose not to flow or are NOT CHOSEN. Just to clarify, 90% are welcome and wanted, but to those 10%ers, I say we give them a big FU!!!

I agree with a filter, since we already know guys like CRJ567 couldn't fly themselves out of a paper bag. Speaking of paper bags, I hope he quickly finishes the fries at McRonalds, he has customers waiting.... He apparently has many problems, not only with finishing the fries ontime. He also dreams of cleaning the urinals and taking home the urinal cakes. That one is a bit strange, but welcome to CRJ567's life.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Monster Buck]

Well put....

Just as importantly, some these guys base much of their self-esteem on the type and size of planes they fly.

-Gen Lee Jr....

You crack me up. You must do the same. Please try to stop crying like a baby and blaming everyone but yourself for your problems. uke: :crying: :crying:

 

[hockeypilot44]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

 

[Raskal]

Hockey, I'm curious why you think it's important that regional pilots interview? The reason I ask is I just don't relate. I've never cared one way or another whom my employer hired. I figure the training program would take care of problem people, and have seen the process work out. Maybe you have a good reason that I'm not seeing, I'm interested in your reasoning.

Cheers

I have to agree with this. Why do (so we're being told) all these pilots at DAL care about who gets the job behind them? Do they seriously have so little to do, so little to worry about in the economy's state, so little to bicker amongst themselves about that they seriously care about who is hired behind them? Really?

Let me get this straight, supposedly you have a lot of pride in your accomplishment in making it to DAL/NWA or whateverthe********************majorairline and quite obviously only you were able to make it through the incridible, exhausting, draining and rigorous (pause and recover breath) training. However, now that you actually made it the company has since dropped training standards so that any short-bus riding rj guy can make it through. Is that it? Do you really have so little faith in your company's training that you're scared anyone can do it?

You jackasses remind me of a bunch of old women with absolutely nothing of value in their own life so they fill their days trying to run everyone else's.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Oh guys I agree, but that is the spew I was given. I am just telling you to see that put forth.
As with XJ you need the degree to flow. That takes out a lot. I am sure anyone that failed the DAL interview would be out too

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well put....

Just as importantly, some these guys base much of their self-esteem on the type and size of planes they fly. Gen PeePants and others think they are just so superior because they are entrusted with a fatter piece of metal.

-This mentality is the equivalent of what was very popular at major airlines a very short time ago, when regionals only flew turboprops "Those commuter guys just aren't qualified to fly a jet."

-Now that most "commuters" fly jets all over the place, these pompus fools just have to come up with a new justification for their egos.

-And ACL65, stop patronizing everyone here about a single list-you pulled up the ladder that got you where you are, and are just as invested in that ladder staying up as the Gen is.

(If you doubt this assertion, maybe you should ask yourself why you are always here on the regionals board stroking your ego.... Regionals were so "a few years back," and we all know they are not talked about politely at those PTC meetings of which you brag.) Best to stay well away from the riff-raff, sir......

-Gen Lee Jr....

For you info SIR, I will be more than happy to fly an RJ on DAL's list. I do not care about the size of jet. Just the pay and QOL.

 

[Grinder10]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

Nice idea, but do you really think that the pilots will be given control of hiring standards at any airline? Maybe you should start with scope first...

 

[koepp]

They will actually flow more that CPS. Up to 183 a year. That is about 100 more a year than CPS can flow.
As we start hiring they and CPS get first dibs.

Frankly, CRJ567 I will not need the flow down. This is not about me, no matter how you try to spin this. It is about getting everyone on the same page. You will see the offers for a CPSesque flow be presented in the coming months.

The XJ flow is limited to 9 per month or 10% of their pilot group in a rolling 12 month period so they'll max out at 108 per year. The CP flow is limited to 20 per month or 25% of the pilot group in a rolling 12 month period so we'll max out at about 83 pilots per year.

 

[PCL_128]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

Maybe that wouldn't have been a problem if you hadn't given away your scope.

Sorry, but there's no legitimate argument to keeping these guys from flowing up. They already fly your passengers using your code in airplanes that have your company's logo and name on the side. Get the flow, then get the single list and end this outsourcing BS.

 

[Speedtape]

Maybe that wouldn't have been a problem if you hadn't given away your scope.

Sorry, but there's no legitimate argument to keeping these guys from flowing up. They already fly your passengers using your code in airplanes that have your company's logo and name on the side. Get the flow, then get the single list and end this outsourcing BS.

Maybe you should ask an Eagle pilot about that.

Just curious? How many Compass and/or Mesaba pilots have flowed?

Ask an Eagle pilot how many Eagle pilots have flowed. Ask an Eagle pilot how many AA pilots have flowed down!

 

[sweptback]

Maybe you should ask an Eagle pilot about that.

Just curious? How many Compass and/or Mesaba pilots have flowed?

Ask an Eagle pilot how many Eagle pilots have flowed. Ask an Eagle pilot how many AA pilots have flowed down!

If a flowthrough was done right, it would prevent that from happening.

A Compass-style flowthrough wouldn't work at an established regional. It only worked at Compass because every pilot hired knew the deal. How is it fair to change the terms of employment for every other DCI carrier?

The only way to get the regionals to sign on, IMO, is make the Delta hiring exclusive to the DCI regional flow-up. No outside street hiring unless you go to a DCI carrier first. If DALPA/DAL did that, you'd see every DCI carrier sign on in a heartbeat -- they'd be fools not to.

 

[crj567]

If a flowthrough was done right, it would prevent that from happening.

A Compass-style flowthrough wouldn't work at an established regional. It only worked at Compass because every pilot hired knew the deal. How is it fair to change the terms of employment for every other DCI carrier?

The only way to get the regionals to sign on, IMO, is make the Delta hiring exclusive to the DCI regional flow-up. No outside street hiring unless you go to a DCI carrier first. If DALPA/DAL did that, you'd see every DCI carrier sign on in a heartbeat -- they'd be fools not to.

That would be a great idea-DAL pilots would get some perspective for a couple of years and perhaps would appreciate the fact that many "barbie jet" pilots do an excellent job as well..

 

[DrewBlows]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

Does the Delta contract have hiring minimums?

Compass' contract has a minimum hiring requirement. I'm not sure what the exact requirements are but essentially you have to ATP eligible. I don't know if this was a company addition to the contract or an association addition, and I honestly don't know what the point is. In theory I guess if everyone was hiring it would give ALPA an opportunity to negotiate better terms in order to attract new talent. In practice the company just ignores the requirement. A handful of guys were hired with less than minimums and the result was an LOA that made it legal.

I guess given the choice of securing scope (still unlikely) or setting hiring minimums, I would choose securing scope. I think long term it gives pilots more negotiating capital. A situation might arise when there is a pilot shortage, but to give pilots negotiating power it would have to happen at a time when the company really wanted new pilots. If the company is that profitable it seems to me they would be more inclined to pay a little more anyway.

Just my opinion. I'm not advocating anything and I don't think name calling is necessary to illustrate a point. I think it's counterproductive.

 

[doh]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

And yet you continue to allow your management to source ever larger percentages of your flying to these pilots who have "no business flying for an airline".

 

[Speedtape]

If a flowthrough was done right, it would prevent that from happening.

The only way to get the regionals to sign on, IMO, is make the Delta hiring exclusive to the DCI regional flow-up. No outside street hiring unless you go to a DCI carrier first. If DALPA/DAL did that, you'd see every DCI carrier sign on in a heartbeat -- they'd be fools not to.

Your idea is a change we can all believe in!

But, you can forget it! That will never, never happen! Delta and DALPA will never, never relinquish the ability to hire guys/gals coming out of the military and then the next privileged group of former employees, sons, daughters, and relatives. These folks will always get first priority amd have direct access to hiring.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Here's the problem. We had a pilot shortage at the regional level a few years ago. Instead of raising wages, they just lowered the requirements to the bare FAA minimums. The interview process was virtually non-existent which allowed anyone to become a regional pilot. There is now a ridiculous pilot surplus which long-term will keep our wages down. We need to hold our current requirements at the majors, create a pilot shortage, and this time raise our wages instead of lowering the hiring standards. By allowing anyone at the regionals to flow, we assure that the seats at the majors will always be filled. This is management's dream. There are many airline pilots flying today that have no business flying for an airline.

So who do you think 85% of those interview slots go to flow or no flow??? Guess what these days it's still regional pilots. Are they going to require 1000 PIC and raise the pay or say 500 PIC or wait that didn't work ok how about 2000 total turbine ( yes perhaps not even 1 PIC type) not enough yet? ok how about 1000 turbine and a 4 year degree??? ect ect ect. Don't think it would happen, look at history it's already been happening. Next thing you'll know is Delta will be interviewing 250 wonders. ( oh by the way look at a certain minority program they pulled at a major college flight school and you aren't that far from it now) ( and there were MUCH better/ more qualified pilots left in the dust with that deal)

 

[whalefat]

Your idea is a change we can all believe in!

But, you can forget it! That will never, never happen! Delta and DALPA will never, never relinquish the ability to hire guys/gals coming out of the military and then the next privileged group of former employees, sons, daughters, and relatives. These folks will always get first priority amd have direct access to hiring.

Relatives first and a few military guys it was heavily civilian in the last round wasn't it?