Pinnacle 1113 ruling set for this Thursday

[Flyer1015]

This is what I'm referencing:

For a period of five years beginning with the submission of
the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be
awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no
pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a
Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain
129 Saab-340 captains. No pre-merger Mesaba pilot may be
awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless
Colgan pilots maintain 152 Saab-340 captains. Minimum
captain positions for Mesaba pilots will be permanently
reduced by an equal amount for any reductions in Saab
Captain positions in Minneapolis, Memphis, Detroit and
New York. Minimum captain positions for Colgan pilots will
be permanently reduced by an amount equal to any
reductions in Washington-Dulles, Boston, Charleston and​

Houston.

MY interpretation of that was that no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded a Saab captain position, and no Colgan pilot may be awarded a Saab captain position, unless Mesaba maintains xxx...

MY interpretation was that what the above is saying is that Pinnacle and Colgan pilots cannot get any Captain seats on the Saab until Mesaba maintains at least xxx......

Instead, what YOU Mesaba and Colgan pilots argued (and WON - because Hunta was nowhere to be seen and did not fight for 9E)............ you guys argued that the sentence reads "no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded Saab Captain, and..." and that somehow that means 9E can't get ANY Saab captain positions.

And that's what happened. We had 2007 DOH Captains get downgraded while Colgan got their May 2010 DOH precious upgrades on the Saab.


In that above, you Mesaba people made a very fine point to exclude Pinnacle pilots from Saab captain positions BASED ON EXACT WORDING BY BLOCH.

So why is EXACT WORDING BY BLOCH not applying to the CRJ-900 ratios?

Amazing how when the tables turn, Mesaba is scrambling in their corners and DEMANDING that the Saab reduction methodology be applied to the jet reductions, EVEN THOUGH BLOCH MADE NO EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS OR RULING ON JET REDUCTIONS.

You're trying to have cake and eat it too. I hope 9E gets what's FAIR, which is a ratio of 279:95 because there is no explicit words from Bloch regarding reducing Pinnacle protected Captain positions. But until Hunta steps down and someone much better steps in, I fully expect Mesaba to win this.

 

[Flyer1015]

9E ATL pilots, make sure you get some accountability from the people who are supposed to represent you. If you don't, the mentality displayed by xjhawk will most likely prevail, and you will be screwed.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

How's that contract over at VA? Sheesh, you left, myob! You're as bad as PCL_128 bragging he'll still pay ALPA dues after SWA takes over!

 

[1.3XVso]

Flyer just give it up. Explaining to these idiottts is like arguing with a liberal (smarta$$). Honestly with your IQ and intellectual brain you should have volunteer and represent the pilot group. You have showed and explain the truth. It's obvious they can't handle it and find a way to cheap shot you. It's funny how now they are comparing you to pcl128! Lol there running out of things to throw at you!

 

[FOrever85]

How long did it take you to write all this crap? Doesn't it bother you how much time and energy you waste on a company you don't work for?

Second, why would anyone at Pinnacle try and undo this at this point. They have nothing to gain and even more to lose.
But I'm bored so I'll play along;

Let's say they throw the Bloch award out. (which they aren't going to do because they have a million other things to do) Let's take a minute and see what would happen.
1) Alpa wastes thousands of dollars re-doing the list (eating steak diners, staying in nice hotels, etc), and it distracts them from getting a decent new contract, or should I say "less screwed" in bankruptcy
2) They find another arbitrator and spend another couple of months making a new one.
Now, What do you think Colgan and Pinnacle are going to look like in a couple of months when they do the new list?
Colgan is gone, 9e 900's gone, x number of 200's (probably gone)

Now where do you think Pinnacle guys are gonna end up in this new list? Oh, and by the way look who is running the MEC now.

Use your brain! As bad as some 9e guys got it last time, this would be way worse.
But it is all moot because they aren't going to do anything about it!

Now go put your time and energy into making your airline better.

 

[mesaba13]

I agree that Bloch does not mention a jet fleet reductions but he states this: "no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be AWARDED or DISPLACED to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions."

I don't see how a pre-merger 9E pilot will be able to move to a 900 CA position under the above wording by Bloch unless Mesaba is at or over 279. By the same reasoning a pre-merger Mesaba pilot that is on a 200 now, will not be able to go to a 900 CA spot because 9E is going well below 95. "no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions."


The ratio will come into play when attrition or further 900 fleet reduction on the pre-merger Mesaba 900 occurs and takes us below 279 positions. Now BOTH groups are below the quotas and awards/displacements would be by ratio 279:95. So if Mesaba is at 250 and 9E is at 0, the 29 positions would be awarded by the ratio. I am not sure how many numbers above 279 we are at now, but it seems with this language that we will go below it soon and from here on in new movements will be a ratio.

If you work it the other way and say that Delta decided to pull all the XJ
900's and keep ATL, the 9E ATL guys would have been protected. As the XJ spots are reduced, no displacements or awards to ATL could occur unless ATL maintained 95 premerger 9E positions. Now, if ATL is later shrunk and goes below 95 then both groups would be below the 279 and 95 and the ratio would take effect.

The part that I am sure seems unfair to the 9E group is that 100% of the
900's leaving, left from a base that is almost all 9E. If 16 planes were pulled that said XJ on the tail, the pain would be spread a little more evenly and wouldn't impact one group so heavily.

 

[mesaba13]

"I don't see how a pre-merger 9E pilot will be able to move to a 900 CA position under the above wording by Bloch unless Mesaba is at or over 279"

This was partly misleading because some Senior premerger 9E pilots will end up "moving" from ATL CA into junior pre-merger 9E 900 CA positions in MSP, DTW, MEM. Albeit, only to the point where XJ stays above 279. So the previous posts that say 9E will end up with zero 900 CA positions are incorrect.

 

[Flyer1015]

mesaba13 gets it. FOforever85, you should be pushing to have someone dedicated and knowledgeable in addressing issues that affect an airline. If I was on the merger committee, things would have gone differently. And I certainly wouldn't have ignored a letter by Pat who desperately needs to know what to do about the Bloch quotas.

1.3xVs, you're right. I do hope they recall and replace those who are incompetent and love spending 9E union dues. But there's no point arguing with people over all this stuff.

 

[gojo]

Flyer just give it up. Explaining to these idiottts is like arguing with a liberal (smarta$$). Honestly with your IQ and intellectual brain you should have volunteer and represent the pilot group. You have showed and explain the truth. It's obvious they can't handle it and find a way to cheap shot you. It's funny how now they are comparing you to pcl128! Lol there running out of things to throw at you!

Whatever!!! You guys should put your money where your mouth is. It's so easy to complain about things. Ever thought about being part of the solution? Have you ever tried to do the job that those guys do? If I remember right, both of you were plenty vocal about wanting to bend over the Mesaba and Colgan pilot groups. It seems that your Hunter union rep was just trying to give you what you wanted. Hey, I don't like him either. But the bullys don't always get their way. And now it is what it is. Get over it. Now all three pilot groups have lost airplanes and captain slots, and that's something that many said would probably happen over two years ago. I didn't think it would be 900's though

 

[Flyer1015]

Whatever!!! You guys should put your money where your mouth is. It's so easy to complain about things. Ever thought about being part of the solution? Have you ever tried to do the job that those guys do? If I remember right, both of you were plenty vocal about wanting to bend over the Mesaba and Colgan pilot groups. It seems that your Hunter union rep was just trying to give you what you wanted. Hey, I don't like him either. But the bullys don't always get their way. And now it is what it is. Get over it. Now all three pilot groups have lost airplanes and captain slots, and that's something that many said would probably happen over two years ago. I didn't think it would be 900's though

If there was a way to resurrect the old airlinkpilots forum, and search my post history, you will see I was always against a full outright staple for Colgan. In fact, I started a thread back then saying how relative would hurt us and that Colgan would make out like kings, and so that DOH would do us better. The merger committee got my thread shutdown, like some kinda gag order. Hunta fought for only the top brass. He completely attempted to screw Colgan. Hunta's worst fear was the -900 group becoming it's own category, and that's exactly what happened. The 9E committee never polled the pilot group on what they wanted. I volunteered years ago after my 1st year. They held the position out for one of their own boys in their club.

 

[1.3XVso]

Whatever!!! You guys should put your money where your mouth is. It's so easy to complain about things. Ever thought about being part of the solution? Have you ever tried to do the job that those guys do? If I remember right, both of you were plenty vocal about wanting to bend over the Mesaba and Colgan pilot groups. It seems that your Hunter union rep was just trying to give you what you wanted. Hey, I don't like him either. But the bullys don't always get their way. And now it is what it is. Get over it. Now all three pilot groups have lost airplanes and captain slots, and that's something that many said would probably happen over two years ago. I didn't think it would be 900's though

I understand 100% the job of a union leader. But one thing is doing the right thing to represent the pilot group and other is not giving a sh!t living off the buy outs and loading up on high end filet minion cuts. I believed and trusted on my union until the obvious came about. It's just like knocking down a mafia organized group. Start with the god father and the rest will crumble down just like Scott Ericson and his 115 line credit capt 900 pay. Premerger 9e are as spineless as can be between company koolaide and union koolaide. It's a circus there and I hope that all the good people have a chance to get out and the rest stay there and continue the spineless dance party. What a joke.

 

[Flyer1015]

For 12 grand, they were not eating at McDonalds or Subway. Think the finest steak houses money can buy. Rumor has it ALPA hasn't paid them back the 12 grand yet. Hope they make a case out of this to say no to excessive spending and taking it from union dues.

12 grand, seriously. Expecting to be paid on union's dime. Probably rented a Mercedes Benz SLK convertible and blasted some tunes Wyclef Sweet Girl....... Cash Rules everything around me, Singin’ dollar dollar bill yall..... dollar dollar bill y'all....Singin’ dollar dollar bill y'all

 

[FOrever85]

mesaba13 gets it. FOforever85, you should be pushing to have someone dedicated and knowledgeable in addressing issues that affect an airline. If I was on the merger committee, things would have gone differently. And I certainly wouldn't have ignored a letter by Pat who desperately needs to know what to do about the Bloch quotas.

1.3xVs, you're right. I do hope they recall and replace those who are incompetent and love spending 9E union dues. But there's no point arguing with people over all this stuff.

I do/I did.

If you was on the merger committee???????
HAHAHA!

That would require you to have the balls to actually do something other than criticize others actions on a web board.

Why stop at the merger committee? Tell us how it would have been different if you were CEO.
Wait how about President of the United States?

Thanks Flyer, that is the funniest thing I have read on here in a long time.

"If I were on the merger committee??"

Good one!

 

[Flyer1015]

I do/I did.

If you were on the merger committee???????
HAHAHA!

That would require you to have the balls to actually do something other than criticize others actions on a web board.

Why stop at the merger committee? Tell us how it would have been different if you were CEO.
Wait how about President of the United States?

Thanks Flyer, that is the funniest thing I have read on here in a long time.

As usual with your post, all bitching/no solutions.

Read again. I volunteered for a position but they held it out for someone in their own boys club. I had plenty of ideas and solutions. Your merger committee squashed them and deleted airlinkpilot threads. Who's the real enemy here. If you can't see that, you're blind. Go on airlinkpilots and see the DFR thread, I hear there is some brutal truth being posted on there and asking for Hunta to step down.

 

[FOrever85]

Ideas, Like what?

"Who's the enemy?" really? Enemy? That's pretty dramatic.

I read the DFR thread. I understand it, and yes he sucked.

In the end it comes back to "What good will come out of this for 9E people?" Again you offer complaining with no solutions.

You get a new person in there and then what? Go ahead it is your turn to tell me how you would fix it.
Lawsuit?
What is that going to accomplish?

Again, I think 9E pilots would be running a huge risk getting the award thrown away. (and at what cost financially?)


Wait, I just remembered it doesn't matter because they aren't going to do anything.

 

[Flyer1015]

My ideas from the get go. Pilots were having a decent talk on how the list should go and people agreed it shouldn't be relative. Save te super senior side, a lotta guys liked DOH. But the 9E committee shut that conversation threaddown and did not want any input on the list. They then went behind the backs of 9E pilots and screwed them by proposing a staple to an arbitrator (dumb thing todo in the first place). Afterwards, they didn't even communicate what they proposed. It was kept all in the dark until the Colgan committee leaked it. My ideas were simple. Poll the pilot group, get a feel for what 9E pilots wanted. Then represent that view to the other committees and arbitrator. And finally, share the aftermath of what was proposed. The 9E committee refused all that. Your class date VS DOH issue was also something contested after the hearings were closed. Again, a failure if the committee because Bloch was confused and caught off guard.

He should step down and let someone who can actually work and fight for 9E pilots. As for the lawsuit, ask the TWA pilots who are using the same lawyer what they got out of it. Hint, ALPA is appealing the decision because they cannot afford to pay out the monetary amount awarded by the court.

 

[xjhawk]

I will say flyer- you are. Bitter man who can't get a grip on reality. You were gifted a new job not based on experience but on other factors- we'll just call it you interviewed well and impressed them at the interview.....while others with thousands of hours of PIC could not even get a call. Why not use some of your energy and make Virgin a better place instead of making further progress on dividing our Pinnacle pilot group?

For the record when I first looked into this scenario of the 900's in ATL leaving I read the language and could see how it could be interpreted either way. When I asked a union rep and even a SLI union rep they both indicated it would most likely be seen as a ratio. You seem to think that all MESABA pilots are behind this but that is your little mind and your super huge ego at work. Yes we get it, you got screwed. But let me remind you at how much better off this all would have been with no fences everything being DOH- and when you place blame on this crap and deface my name it was not me or 3/4 of MESABA who benefited from pinnacle s fight against DOH and caused this. Bloch was an idiot, is an idiot. Creating more strife about 95 positions when we may start to lose 1000 or more crj200 positions is utterly ridiculous. Who ever makes the decision on the 95 900 positions in ATL can make their decision and I will live with it and continue with my career goals and work with my fellow pinnacle pilots.

Mind your own Virgin business and take your petty little comments and fight somewhere else. OUR pilot group as a bigger fight at hand and needs to be united.

 

[1.3XVso]

I will say flyer- you are. Bitter man who can't get a grip on reality. You were gifted a new job not based on experience but on other factors- we'll just call it you interviewed well and impressed them at the interview.....while others with thousands of hours of PIC could not even get a call. Why not use some of your energy and make Virgin a better place instead of making further progress on dividing our Pinnacle pilot group?

For the record when I first looked into this scenario of the 900's in ATL leaving I read the language and could see how it could be interpreted either way. When I asked a union rep and even a SLI union rep they both indicated it would most likely be seen as a ratio. You seem to think that all MESABA pilots are behind this but that is your little mind and your super huge ego at work. Yes we get it, you got screwed. But let me remind you at how much better off this all would have been with no fences everything being DOH- and when you place blame on this crap and deface my name it was not me or 3/4 of MESABA who benefited from pinnacle s fight against DOH and caused this. Bloch was an idiot, is an idiot. Creating more strife about 95 positions when we may start to lose 1000 or more crj200 positions is utterly ridiculous. Who ever makes the decision on the 95 900 positions in ATL can make their decision and I will live with it and continue with my career goals and work with my fellow pinnacle pilots.

Mind your own Virgin business and take your petty little comments and fight somewhere else. OUR pilot group as a bigger fight at hand and needs to be united.

Maybe because those PIC guys can't pass the assessment test?! maybe? Your a fool. Maybe there such a tool bag that the interview panel can see through them? Yeah just because you have PIC time doesn't mean sh!t.

 

[i fly boxes]

When I leave pinnacle i will never post about it again. I think it's sad that flyer does and I feel bad for him. There is obviously a reason he can't let it go. And I don't buy the whole i still have friends there. He just wants everyone to know that he is at a better place now. The thing is is that we don't care, we don't go ruin Virgin America threads

 

[xjhawk]

Maybe because those PIC guys can't pass the assessment test?! maybe? Your a fool. Maybe there such a tool bag that the interview panel can see through them? Yeah just because you have PIC time doesn't mean sh!t.

True genius. Kids now days. "Experience does not mean ********************" is what you are saying? Wow. You are the fools fool. My knowledge, education, and experience speaks for itself.

 

[Flyer1015]

The race card. Low blow. xjhawk, you aren't any more special than the thousands of pilots with the same hours (or more) of total time and TPIC. The airlines need some sort of process to weed out the applicant pile, and many use a computerized assessment. Those who pass this test are called for an interview. It doesn't matter if you're black, white, hispanic, asian. Race has nothing to do with it. It's a simple computerized test that one needs to pass. Do well on it, and you're guaranteed a call.

If you don't get a call, it means most likely you did not score enough on the online test. Pilots are in abundance today, there is no shortage of 5,000+ hour pilots with turbine PIC time. Failing the test and taking out your frustration on others using a race card doesn't help anything. If that really is your attitude, good luck getting the job even if you get the interview. They'll see through that kinda personality.

 

[Flyer1015]

When I leave pinnacle i will never post about it again. I think it's sad that flyer does and I feel bad for him. There is obviously a reason he can't let it go. And I don't buy the whole i still have friends there. He just wants everyone to know that he is at a better place now. The thing is is that we don't care, we don't go ruin Virgin America threads

Look at the posts above. They are long, reasoned, and should be thought-provoking. I'd really rather not see 9E folks get more screwed from the Bloch award's interpretation on the ATL -900 closure. It doesn't matter where I am, that's not the point. The point is you deserve better, and your current rep is not getting the job done.

 

[1.3XVso]

True genius. Kids now days. "Experience does not mean ********************" is what you are saying? Wow. You are the fools fool. My knowledge, education, and experience speaks for itself.

Good for you. You can have all those perx but if your a tool bag interview panel can see right through you or you can make yourself stand out. I can tell flying 6 hrs with you will be a nightmare.

 

[RJLoser]

Any word on the outcome?

 

[N813CA]

Lets just say Comair all over again. I hope that is not the case.

 

[xjhawk]

Cancelled conference call. I am waiting on a union email. Oh and this threat will be so much nicer with the ignore function in full use. Sorry bitter virgin and fools fool! A guy can only stand so much shoveling of crap

 

[1.3XVso]

Cancelled conference call. I am waiting on a union email. Oh and this threat will be so much nicer with the ignore function in full use. Sorry bitter virgin and fools fool! A guy can only stand so much shoveling of crap

Why are you still at mesaba?

 

[jynxyjericho]

Why are you still at mesaba?

Probably for some of the same reasons you enjoy being a troll. Think about it, you've become comfortable with the gig, you're good at it, it's got it's problems but the benefits outweigh the cons for now. You could be a thought provoking, and substantive poster on here but that makes changing things up from your normal routine and why bother for flight info? I will say, I am surprised you stand shoulder to shoulder with flyer, normally trolls are trolls to everyone but hey, maybe you are evolving a little.

Everyone make nice to Flyer, because it's clear Virgin is going the distance and we'll all need his help someday to get on there. We all know his name afterall, we should put him down as a reference. I don't mind the talking bad part about Pinnacle, who cares, it's the winding tangential rants which worry me. Those of you who've spent more than 5 minutes in the same crewroom while he gets going can attest. Of course if you believe his posts (back when he was still pretending to be someone else) he never talks in the crew rooms, so don't take my word for it. Everyone talk about your fondest time with old flyer here.

 

[Flyer1015]

For a handsome fee, I'll walk your stuff in. . Thought you were a XJ/9L pilot, not original 9E. Take what you hear with a grain of salt, especially so called crewroom banter. Anyway, hopefully the 9E guys can still get a positive answer to the clarification questions about the jet quotas. Good luck.

 

[General Lee]

As I stated 2 months ago: New HQ will end up at the old NATCO...Delta will purchase 9E....9E will operate the 717's.

Ummmmmm, NO. You need a drug test. A bid for Capt and FO spots on the 717 at Mainline will happen in JAN/FEB, and they start coming 3 a month in AUG of next year.



Bye Bye---General Lee