Pilots in the job market--

[FLYLOW22]

My heart goes out to anyone missing a family member this Christmas. I know only too well what that is like. We have evil people in America, too.

They just dress better and occasionally take showers.

 

[Publishers]

There is not a direct correlation between unions and the bottom line as Southwest serves as an example. What does happen however, is that union companies do not have the capability to always react quickly to major changes in business.
Earlier, Netjetswife seem to feel that 9/11 was not something that needed a major reaction to deal with. Her pontiifcation about business is common union management drivel and just does not take into account that there have been and will continue to be major events that shake industries to the point some become unsound. There are a number of things that can make that happen and terrorism has been added recently. Others are major regulatory changes such as airline deregulation. another might be technology as in railroads versus airliners.
Unions tend to migrate to bigger work forces and so these big companies which are awkward from their size alone find themselves bogged down with union rules, massive pension cost, massive healthcare cost, etc..
She is right in that you can have a strong union and a strong company but what has to happen is a strong economy and mostly stability. Most unions work well in a growing economy or growing industry-- think Southwest-- and only fail when something comes along that causes a big recline in growth.
I would also point out to Netjetswife that at the time of their contract, United Airlines thought that they had come up with a terrific contract. None would have guessed that in a few years, employee ownership and much of the airline would be on the verge of extinction.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Thanks, GV! I'll take that as reinforcement of my post. Furthermore, let's all keep in mind that "modest" to the wealthy is way above the pilot salaries --even with the new pay raise. The money has always been there; they just didn't want to share it. I doubt it's much different at the other fractional companies. The businesses have been built on the backs of the pilots. Time to be fair and pay them like the professionals they are. Pay raises are way overdue--across the industry. It made sense for the biggest pilot group to go first. At the risk of being labeled a terrorist, I'll suggest that now is the time for the rest of you to make the most of this opportunity.

Best of luck!
Netjetwife

PS My definition of Jihad, as it applies to frac pilots---

J ust standing up for their rights
I nsisting on fair treatment and pay
H olding out for what they have earned
A ll standing together, shoulder to shoulder
D emanding they be recognized as professionals

"Jihad" as it applies to frac pilots?

WTF?

you might wanna rethink that one.

 

[Going2Golf]

"Jihad" as it applies to frac pilots?

WTF?

you might wanna rethink that one.

I think that it applies perfectly to Frac Pilots. Jihad defined...
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad )

Jihad (Arabic: جهاد jihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root jhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle to further the Islamic cause. The meaning of "Islamic cause" is, of course, open to interpretation. Mainstream Muslims consider jihad to be the most misunderstood aspect of their religion by non-Muslims[1]. The Islamic religious legitimacy of the goals or methods of various Islamist movements who adopt the terminology of jihad is often brought into question, usually by moderate and liberal Muslims.

The term is frequently mistranslated into English as "holy war"; however, the concept of jihad encompasses more than just warfare, and a more accurate translation probably would be "holy struggle" or "righteous struggle".

The denotation is of a challenging or difficult, (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or resistance.
A person who engages in any form of jihad is called a "mujahid", meaning "striver" or "struggler". This term is most often used to mean a person who engages in fighting, but, for example a Muslim struggling to memorize the Qur'an is called a mujahid.

 

[netjetwife]

Explaining my post---again.

GS200, I was NOT the one who introduced the term "Jihad" into the conversation/debate. The thread by WheresRocky which started the whole thing is now on page 2. My post (which confused you) was an attempt to apply the meaning that G2G did such a good job of explaining. It was exactly what I had in mind when I gave my definition of Jihad. WheresRocky is the one who had tried to link --unfairly so, I might add---the negative connotation of the word to the right of pilots to form a union to represent their interests. Apparently you missed his post which started out like this---

RUFM up...Radical Union fundamentalist movement
"Netjetwife and others are involved in a full time JIHAD now. Evidence: 99% of their posts of late are spreading their radical pro-union stance on those non-union fractional carriers. "

 

[FLYLOW22]

There is not a direct correlation between unions and the bottom line as Southwest serves as an example. What does happen however, is that union companies do not have the capability to always react quickly to major changes in business.
Earlier, Netjetswife seem to feel that 9/11 was not something that needed a major reaction to deal with. Her pontiifcation about business is common union management drivel and just does not take into account that there have been and will continue to be major events that shake industries to the point some become unsound. There are a number of things that can make that happen and terrorism has been added recently. Others are major regulatory changes such as airline deregulation. another might be technology as in railroads versus airliners.
Unions tend to migrate to bigger work forces and so these big companies which are awkward from their size alone find themselves bogged down with union rules, massive pension cost, massive healthcare cost, etc..
She is right in that you can have a strong union and a strong company but what has to happen is a strong economy and mostly stability. Most unions work well in a growing economy or growing industry-- think Southwest-- and only fail when something comes along that causes a big recline in growth.
I would also point out to Netjetswife that at the time of their contract, United Airlines thought that they had come up with a terrific contract. None would have guessed that in a few years, employee ownership and much of the airline would be on the verge of extinction.

And you weren't just pontificating?

The fact is that it costs the same for company A to support their Unionized labor with decent pay and benes while working together as it does company B to fight their union tooth and nail and NOT get the reielf the copany needs to respond to the changes in the industry.

I am glad we have the leadership we do in our Union. I am sure that if the industry changed dramatically tomorrow, the company would get the relief they needed (and nothing more). We already responded to the NetJets need for relief once when 91K went into effect last year.

We have good leadership. Some Unions do not. To lump all of the Unions out there into one category is downright racist.

 

[FLYLOW22]

"Jihad" as it applies to frac pilots?

WTF?

you might wanna rethink that one.

That was a joke she was making to Rocky or Bullwinkle at the beginning of the thread. Do some digging for the rest of the story.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

GS200, I was NOT the one who introduced the term "Jihad" into the conversation/debate. The thread by WheresRocky which started the whole thing is now on page 2. My post (which confused you) was an attempt to apply the meaning that G2G did such a good job of explaining. It was exactly what I had in mind when I gave my definition of Jihad. WheresRocky is the one who had tried to link --unfairly so, I might add---the negative connotation of the word to the right of pilots to form a union to represent their interests. Apparently you missed his post which started out like this---

RUFM up...Radical Union fundamentalist movement
"Netjetwife and others are involved in a full time JIHAD now. Evidence: 99% of their posts of late are spreading their radical pro-union stance on those non-union fractional carriers. "

I guess I did. sorry.

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks for the apology! Now that you understand--what do you think of my definition of Jihad, based on the true meaning, as explained by G2G? He's right, it applies perfectly. There were many times over the last few years that it felt like an uphill battle. Now the focus is on compliance, and learning to work together for the good of all--company and pilot group. Those who followed closely know who has the most to learn.

Publishers, labor strife is well known for being a major distraction for companies. Just as contented, motivated employees are better known for going the extra mile when called upon. In a perfect world unions wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately, we all know that NJA was in no hurry to treat its pilots respectfully and pay them professionally. Management and SU leadership have expressed a common goal of improving their labor/management relationship. Now that the company is finally putting their money where their mouth is, there is a real chance of making that goal a reality.

And one more thing --while I'm pontificating Benefits like health care and 401K matching are considered the basic costs of attracting skilled workers, these days. It has nothing to do with whether or not the workers are unionized-- or not. I will agree, though, that the workers who band together have the greatest chance of receiving their due share from the company's coffers. Likewise, the companies that deal fairly and honestly with their workforce are least likely to have employees that demand more than they're due.

Lastly (yes, that makes 2 final points, but isn't that allowed when you pontificate...lol?) as far as being able to respond rapidly to economic changes, a strong union can be a big help in that regard. Given the last 4 years at NJA, who has the best chance of getting the pilots to go above and beyond when the company is in a bind--management or 1108's leadership?
NJW

 

[DO-82 driver]

NJW.....time and time again SU has proven that this pilot force is comprised of experts in the fields the Company so desperately needs assistance in. The problem lies in the poor Upper-level Management that will not utilitze these experts in solving the many problems that exist in the Puzzle Palace.

Now that the negotiations are over, I pray they will see the light at the end of the tunnel and work in earnest with SU to make this place run more efficiently.

I really see the problem as being the death grip the "old hands" in scheduling have over their little kingdom. There are several key people up there who will fight ANY interferrence in the way they have done things over soooo many years.

We are not a Mom and Pop company anymore but they still insist on doing things as they have done in the past. When these people are convinced that there is a better way or when they are forced to go elsewhere then I will know this Company is serious about saving money.

I truely believe they are untouchables......not taking their orders from BB but rather RTS. And as long as they feed him the numbers he wants to see, there is no chance of changing their perverted practices.