Picking up extra work with guys on the street

[waveflyer]

As with all things, there is WAY more to this story than the originator of this thread would have you believe.

Enlighten us.

470 pilots on furlough

Who gave up jobs to come work there-
Who have families
Who have mortgages
Who are jobless in a seriously flat economy (ie: home depot's probably not an option)

Some things are grey, some are black and white.

Make your case, please.

 

[say again]

But at the end of the day, someone will always be willing to work your hours for more money......

And this is the sad fact of the industry today!! Brotherhood? YGTBSM. It's become a cut-throat industry.

 

[jonjuan]

Enlighten us.

470 pilots on furlough

Who gave up jobs to come work there-
Who have families
Who have mortgages
Who are jobless in a seriously flat economy (ie: home depot's probably not an option)

Some things are grey, some are black and white.

Make your case, please.

His case is that customers would leave if a certain group didn't say yes to overtime leading to even more furloughs.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Thanks for presuming to speak for me Juan. Where to begin?

At a time when NJASAP leadership is asking for, no, demanding "unity" from it's pilots, the union publishes a matrix of information it has never before published that can only serve to drive a bigger wedge between pilots of NJA and the pilots of the former NJI.

By the very nature of its operation, the long-range Gulfstream Global Large Cabin fleet has accrued more voluntary extended days than the other fleets combined. The simple economic fact is, extended crew days in order to complete a complicated international itinerary are cheaper than the alternative of swapping out a crew in Timbuktu on business class airline tickets. When you are extending two and sometimes three pilots for two or three days a couple of times a week on trips to Asia or Eastern Europe or beyond, the extended days stack up fast. The VAST majority of the extended days in the GLC are tied to international trips. And yes Juan, intentionally driving up operating costs to somehow "punish" the company and "stand up" for furloughed pilots will ultimately result in MORE furloughs.

Another point. NJASAP makes a continued and robust case against outsourcing to charter vendors because it costs seniority list jobs. If extended days will help prevent a sell-off, doesn't that protect seniority list jobs?

More pointedly, there is a HUGE number of pilots working the 18 day schedule at Netjets providing the company with 36 more pilot days per year than a 7-7 line holder. I would argue THAT choice presents a greater roadblock to pilot recalls than voluntary extended days. But I don't begrudge 18 day pilots any more than voluntary extenders because the contract provides for both options.

Finally, the sad fact is the vast majority of furloughed Netjets pilots will never return to the company. The fleet is shrinking, the business model is mature, and hopefully most, if not all, have located better employment elsewhere whether in or out of aviation. Under the BEST case scenario of future fleet size and attrition, recall is AT LEAST 5 years away.

I work the 7-7 and haven't flown an extended day in roughly 3 years. But at a time when we're supposed to be "unified" I find it peculiar that the UNION generates a document that stirs the busybodies to fling poo at their "brothers."

 

[waveflyer]

Is the 18 day schedule an option for each pilot or is there a limit and bid on in seniority order?

 

[gutshotdraw]

It is a seniority bid award and does have a pay premium. There is a maximum percentage of seat/fleet that can bid it but I don't know which fleets, if any, have hit the ceiling. In the GLC, it is actually harder to get OFF the 18 day than to get ON it.

 

[BentOver]

The 18 day can only be reduced by 10% per bid period I believe. It would take some time, if ever, to be able to ween everyone, or most, off it. And they can still force people onto it I believe.

as far as the GLC guys needing to extend to fulfill those Timbuktu crew swaps.....If there is some way to prove that an extended day WAS NOT voluntary, then I have no problem with that.

And further more, without the GLC extended days, there is still roughly 500 days that were voluntarily extended. Way too many.... Gutshot only assumed I was picking on the GLC guys. But then again if the shoe fits....... I've found that when someone is so quick to defend, he is most likely feeling he did something wrong (or in this case, his fellow GLC guys).

Not sure if you've(Gutshot) read the contract, 1.5.4(c) to be precise, but there is more than one reason for the scope language. Unless you've had blinders on this whole time, NJA CAN ABSOLUTELY sell-off as much as they want. Heck they can sell-off 100 days if they choose to. But everyday past 11 will result in some sort of recall. And that is directly proportional to the amount of sell-offs that occur.

In the end, changing the scope language is very bad. Both for the potentual for contract induced recalls, AND saving jobs currently still there.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The 18 day can only be reduced by 10% per bid period I believe. It would take some time, if ever, to be able to ween everyone, or most, off it. And they can still force people onto it I believe.

as far as the GLC guys needing to extend to fulfill those Timbuktu crew swaps.....If there is some way to prove that an extended day WAS NOT voluntary, then I have no problem with that.

And further more, without the GLC extended days, there is still roughly 500 days that were voluntarily extended. Way too many.... Gutshot only assumed I was picking on the GLC guys. But then again if the shoe fits....... I've found that when someone is so quick to defend, he is most likely feeling he did something wrong (or in this case, his fellow GLC guys).

Not sure if you've(Gutshot) read the contract, 1.5.4(c) to be precise, but there is more than one reason for the scope language. Unless you've had blinders on this whole time, NJA CAN ABSOLUTELY sell-off as much as they want. Heck they can sell-off 100 days if they choose to. But everyday past 11 will result in some sort of recall. And that is directly proportional to the amount of sell-offs that occur.

In the end, changing the scope language is very bad. Both for the potentual for contract induced recalls, AND saving jobs currently still there.

Extended days don't jeopardize scope. If anything, they protect it.

More importantly, WHY did your union leadership feel the need to publish such statistics?


And if I assumed you were picking on GLC guys, it's because we have been the whipping boys for every perceived inequity at Netjets for years.

 

[slaquer5]

Then, of course there was capt d-bag publicly saying in '09 that we should furlough so his pairing and line values could be back up to normal- everybody's got their 10%- and every airline has their 1%.
It's a pretty shameful thing though, picking up with pilots furloughed-

He even said that to the new guys he flew with , they would be the ones to get furloughed . He explaned to them that in the long run furloughs are good for everyone. Pathetic old mad that has no life and flys every day that he can. One more reason to show the age 65 pilots are very selfish. At least he will be gone in a couple of years.

 

[jonjuan]

By the very nature of its operation, the long-range Gulfstream Global Large Cabin fleet has accrued more voluntary extended days than the other fleets combined. The simple economic fact is, extended crew days in order to complete a complicated international itinerary are cheaper than the alternative of swapping out a crew in Timbuktu on business class airline tickets. When you are extending two and sometimes three pilots for two or three days a couple of times a week on trips to Asia or Eastern Europe or beyond, the extended days stack up fast. The VAST majority of the extended days in the GLC are tied to international trips. And yes Juan, intentionally driving up operating costs to somehow "punish" the company and "stand up" for furloughed pilots will ultimately result in MORE furloughs.

You DO know the cost of positioning crews internationally is directly passed along to the customer-no cost to the company. Please tell us you understand this. Go ahead and ask the bill dept. Knowing this, now how do you feel about volunteering for extended days?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

And this is the sad fact of the industry today!! Brotherhood? YGTBSM. It's become a cut-throat industry.

CEOs get first consideration.

 

[instructordude]

So just when I thought Netjets had a strong union.

Turns out there has been over a thousand extra days of work picked up while there are guys on the street. This is for Jan 1st-Sep 30th....


IYO is this alot compared to what you all have seen at the majors when guys are on furlough? A handful I could see, but 1000+ seems excessive.

Trying to get a perspective from 121 guys. We have a 30+ year 121 guy (furloughed Netjets)who thinks this picking up of "extra work" is the worst he's seen...

thoughts?

Thanks

You've got pay your bills so why not?? Not working extra isn't going to get those guys back in the cockpit is it? You'd be leaving money on the table if you don't.

 

[BentOver]

You've got pay your bills so why not?? Not working extra isn't going to get those guys back in the cockpit is it? You'd be leaving money on the table if you don't.

Stay in your RJ with your 3800 hrs. In time you'll get the bigger picture.

 

[BentOver]

Extended days don't jeopardize scope. If anything, they protect it.

More importantly, WHY did your union leadership feel the need to publish such statistics?


And if I assumed you were picking on GLC guys, it's because we have been the whipping boys for every perceived inequity at Netjets for years.

Extended days allow the company to do more with less.. Pretty simple concept to understand.

The union published statistics in an attempt to bring to light just how many extended days were being picked up. Last year they thought it was a non-issue. apparently it is not a non-issue anymore.

BTW..like it or not it is also YOUR union. Your work rules/pay/QOL is now lumped in with the rest of the pilot group... We now all make a collective decision on what CBA we work under. Better get used to it.

And like I said, I never pointed fingers at the GLC guys. You just assumed.

 

[dashtrash]

everybody's got their 10%- and every airline has their 1%.
It's a pretty shameful thing though, picking up with pilots furloughed-

Multiply your %'s by at least 5 & you are correct.

 

[mamba20]

Guys on the street and people are picking up open time? Must be either scabs or former CAL pilots, or both.

 

[gutshotdraw]

BTW..like it or not it is also YOUR union. Your work rules/pay/QOL is now lumped in with the rest of the pilot group... We now all make a collective decision on what CBA we work under. Better get used to it.

I referred to YOUR union leadership because none of the NJI people got to vote for said leadership. I still question why the eboard makes decisions and publishes information that is bound to split the group and then demands "unity."

 

[gutshotdraw]

You DO know the cost of positioning crews internationally is directly passed along to the customer-no cost to the company. Please tell us you understand this. Go ahead and ask the bill dept. Knowing this, now how do you feel about volunteering for extended days?

Close, but no cigar.

When the itinerary calls for a pre-positioned crew at a tech stop, say in Anchorage, to conduct a long range flight, the customer is billed for those expenses.

When the crew has to be swapped out halfway through a trip, say while the customer is doing his three days of business in Beijing, the COMPANY eats the expense. Just as if the customer was in Toledo for three days and it was time for the crew to go home.

Customer convenience: customer pays.

Company (or contract) convenience: company pays.

 

[BentOver]

I referred to YOUR union leadership because none of the NJI people got to vote for said leadership. I still question why the eboard makes decisions and publishes information that is bound to split the group and then demands "unity."

Probably to show just how much was being picked up. Who or where those extended days are coming from is not important. The fact that they are being picked up, and the amount, is. A majority are coming from the Gulfstream fleets, but that doesn't make up for the other half that are coming from the rest.

On our furloughed side, we really have no concern over what fleet is doing those days. The fact that they are being picked up is our concern. Of course "if" we ever rejoin the seniority list you can be sure this will not be forgotten.

 

[gutshotdraw]

If you are furloughed Bent, I truly hope you will find or have found something better because the sad fact is, this furlough will last a LONG time.

Like I said before, I don't fly extended days but, more importantly, I don't fly the 18 day. In my opinion, that schedule will keep you off the property way longer than extended days.

Happy Thanksgiving.