Picking up extra work with guys on the street

[PBRstreetgang]

And this is the sad fact of the industry today!! Brotherhood? YGTBSM. It's become a cut-throat industry.

CEOs get first consideration.

 

[instructordude]

So just when I thought Netjets had a strong union.

Turns out there has been over a thousand extra days of work picked up while there are guys on the street. This is for Jan 1st-Sep 30th....


IYO is this alot compared to what you all have seen at the majors when guys are on furlough? A handful I could see, but 1000+ seems excessive.

Trying to get a perspective from 121 guys. We have a 30+ year 121 guy (furloughed Netjets)who thinks this picking up of "extra work" is the worst he's seen...

thoughts?

Thanks

You've got pay your bills so why not?? Not working extra isn't going to get those guys back in the cockpit is it? You'd be leaving money on the table if you don't.

 

[BentOver]

You've got pay your bills so why not?? Not working extra isn't going to get those guys back in the cockpit is it? You'd be leaving money on the table if you don't.

Stay in your RJ with your 3800 hrs. In time you'll get the bigger picture.

 

[BentOver]

Extended days don't jeopardize scope. If anything, they protect it.

More importantly, WHY did your union leadership feel the need to publish such statistics?


And if I assumed you were picking on GLC guys, it's because we have been the whipping boys for every perceived inequity at Netjets for years.

Extended days allow the company to do more with less.. Pretty simple concept to understand.

The union published statistics in an attempt to bring to light just how many extended days were being picked up. Last year they thought it was a non-issue. apparently it is not a non-issue anymore.

BTW..like it or not it is also YOUR union. Your work rules/pay/QOL is now lumped in with the rest of the pilot group... We now all make a collective decision on what CBA we work under. Better get used to it.

And like I said, I never pointed fingers at the GLC guys. You just assumed.

 

[dashtrash]

everybody's got their 10%- and every airline has their 1%.
It's a pretty shameful thing though, picking up with pilots furloughed-

Multiply your %'s by at least 5 & you are correct.

 

[mamba20]

Guys on the street and people are picking up open time? Must be either scabs or former CAL pilots, or both.

 

[gutshotdraw]

BTW..like it or not it is also YOUR union. Your work rules/pay/QOL is now lumped in with the rest of the pilot group... We now all make a collective decision on what CBA we work under. Better get used to it.

I referred to YOUR union leadership because none of the NJI people got to vote for said leadership. I still question why the eboard makes decisions and publishes information that is bound to split the group and then demands "unity."

 

[gutshotdraw]

You DO know the cost of positioning crews internationally is directly passed along to the customer-no cost to the company. Please tell us you understand this. Go ahead and ask the bill dept. Knowing this, now how do you feel about volunteering for extended days?

Close, but no cigar.

When the itinerary calls for a pre-positioned crew at a tech stop, say in Anchorage, to conduct a long range flight, the customer is billed for those expenses.

When the crew has to be swapped out halfway through a trip, say while the customer is doing his three days of business in Beijing, the COMPANY eats the expense. Just as if the customer was in Toledo for three days and it was time for the crew to go home.

Customer convenience: customer pays.

Company (or contract) convenience: company pays.

 

[BentOver]

I referred to YOUR union leadership because none of the NJI people got to vote for said leadership. I still question why the eboard makes decisions and publishes information that is bound to split the group and then demands "unity."

Probably to show just how much was being picked up. Who or where those extended days are coming from is not important. The fact that they are being picked up, and the amount, is. A majority are coming from the Gulfstream fleets, but that doesn't make up for the other half that are coming from the rest.

On our furloughed side, we really have no concern over what fleet is doing those days. The fact that they are being picked up is our concern. Of course "if" we ever rejoin the seniority list you can be sure this will not be forgotten.

 

[gutshotdraw]

If you are furloughed Bent, I truly hope you will find or have found something better because the sad fact is, this furlough will last a LONG time.

Like I said before, I don't fly extended days but, more importantly, I don't fly the 18 day. In my opinion, that schedule will keep you off the property way longer than extended days.

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[jonjuan]

Close, but no cigar.

When the itinerary calls for a pre-positioned crew at a tech stop, say in Anchorage, to conduct a long range flight, the customer is billed for those expenses.

When the crew has to be swapped out halfway through a trip, say while the customer is doing his three days of business in Beijing, the COMPANY eats the expense. Just as if the customer was in Toledo for three days and it was time for the crew to go home.

Customer convenience: customer pays.

Company (or contract) convenience: company pays.

So, guys extend because they altruistically want to save the company money and not because it's an easy way to make some jack? Bottom line is that the company would need more pilots if guys didn't extend.

 

[gutshotdraw]

That's crap. If people bid off the 18 day, THEN they might need more pilots on the property.

And guess what. If my choice is extending a day and flying a trip back to the CONUS or riding in a crowd-killer in 26E for 9.5 hours, you damn skippy I'm going to extend. And so would you.

 

[waveflyer]

All about you, eh?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Me and every other pilot on the property faced with the same choice.

 

[jonjuan]

And guess what. If my choice is extending a day and flying a trip back to the CONUS or riding in a crowd-killer in 26E for 9.5 hours, you damn skippy I'm going to extend. And so would you.

Ahhhh, now I get it....extending is now just getting back the the US commercially and has nothing to to with flying a few more days internationally. Funny how you like to justify. It used to be "It's difficult to fly a crew to Timbuktu to catch up to a trip" and now it's "extending a day back to CONUS (of course in a middle a seat as always)." Do you no longer fly in BIZ overseas?
Dude, quit trying to justify why your buds pick up overtime while your brothers are out on the street struggling to make ends meet with families suffering.

 

[fischman]

I really don't think this belongs in a 121 forum, but since it is...

Our 121 friends for the most part aren't privy to our business model. It is different from theirs, and required a different mode of thinking. Staffing at our company is determined by airframes, and airframes only. Picking up extended days will not, and does not effect staffing levels.

Having said that, is it a good idea to pick up extended days in our climate? NO!!! Why? I'm glad you asked!

#1) You are screwing yourself out of money if you do. If you don't extend scheduling is going to use you anyway, not be able to get you home by midnight, and whamo you got yerself 2 days after-midnight pay. imp:

#2) Section 6 negotiations, believe it or not, have begun. Negotiations are all about LEVERAGE. Why give the company leverage FOR FREE!?! In every negotiation there is a give and take. When you extend, it is a give and give.

Pilots have always been their own worst enemies.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Ahhhh, now I get it....extending is now just getting back the the US commercially and has nothing to to with flying a few more days internationally. Funny how you like to justify. It used to be "It's difficult to fly a crew to Timbuktu to catch up to a trip" and now it's "extending a day back to CONUS (of course in a middle a seat as always)." Do you no longer fly in BIZ overseas?
Dude, quit trying to justify why your buds pick up overtime while your brothers are out on the street struggling to make ends meet with families suffering.

There are lots of reasons for extending "dude" and it isn't my place, or yours, to tell somebody not to. As Fish pointed out, extended days DO NOT affect staffing levels in a fractional business model.

And since you asked, no we DON'T fly biz class anymore when the block time on the crowd-killer is under 10 hours.

BTW Fish, some of us DON'T get paid two days for after midnights, only one.

Regardless, I have my reasons for NOT extending just as others have their reasons FOR extending. Or bidding the 18 day.

 

[waveflyer]

Explain for the fractionally challenged how extending doesn't reduce the need for pilots-
Honest question-

Gutshot- if we all negotiated our own individual contracts, I'd agree with your attitude-
But you and everyone on this board - (even JBlu) collectively bargains. That's when it becomes everyone's business.

 

[BentOver]

I posted this question in the Majors (121) forum mostly to get another opinion. (I did fly 121 for 5 years, was ALPA, and as many did, got screwed by my company one way or another)

I did have an alterior motive for posting here also. To ge the plight of Netjets extended day issues, mentality of some etc, into another segment of the industry. (on a very small scale)

Maybe, on a long shot, someone at Netjets will run into a colleague at a major. Hopefully that colleague at a major will ask his NJA buddy. "dude, what's up with your pilot group picking up so many days of extra flying?"

yes, it is a shameless attempt to persuade even one NJA pilot from extended if he/she was on the fence about doing so....

When it comes to flying extra flying (lining your pockets) when others are possibly having trouble feeding their families, I will do as much as I can to expose those individuals or atleast attempt to make their aviation lives as difficult as possible.

Fischman:
#1)Extra flying most certainly affects staffing. The new corporate culture is to do more with less. In essence, NJA is being allowed to do more with less. And will continue to do so until they realize otherwise.

#2) although airlines operate more on a block hour system. The number of aircraft does have an influence on staffing also. Ever hear of 10:1 pilot to aircraft ratio. Why do you think 121 guys (FO's) get excited when their companies order more a/c?

I agree with your other points about negotiations.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Bent, 1000 extended pilot days versus somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 additional pilot days because of the 18 day. Who is "lining their pockets" more?

When people start bidding off 18 day en masse, THEN I'll start lobbying people not to extend.

 

[waveflyer]

Gut- isn't the 18 day part of your bid - ie: if no one bid it, then it would go to the more junior? I'd think getting rid of 18 day would have to come from union leadership negotiating w/ mgmt, not individual choice-

The peer pressure is about individuals making choices that exacerbate the problem-

 

[CA1900]

The 15-day is the only schedule that can be junior-assigned, to a maximum of 10% of the group.

 

[waveflyer]

So the 18 day is a choice and should be treated the same as extending...

Simple, no matter how you're doing it, if you're flying extra when others are on the street- that's pretty f^cked up-

 

[gutshotdraw]

So the 18 day is a choice and should be treated the same as extending...

Simple, no matter how you're doing it, if you're flying extra when others are on the street- that's pretty f^cked up-

And I don't do either. Funny thing is, a lot of people railing against voluntary extended days work the 18 day.

 

[waveflyer]

Well that's hypocritical

 

[LearLove]

Apparenty I'm a time hog. Crewtrac for Dec11 shows my sked blocked for 11,000.26 hours of pay. I'm printing that puppy out and holding them to it.

 

[Hpilot]

Stay in your RJ with your 3800 hrs. In time you'll get the bigger picture.

Actually, he'll get hired at Alaska and will eventually be they're number one head senior wanker. Screwing everyone junior, every chance he gets.

Seriously, these @ss h*l*s have to come from somewhere.

 

[say again]

Don't forget the numerous trips that NJ has to sell to vendors to cover trips.

 

[BentOver]

Don't forget the numerous trips that NJ has to sell to vendors to cover trips.

450 or so this current quarter is what's predicted...

 

[OPECJet]

I really don't think this belongs in a 121 forum, but since it is...

Our 121 friends for the most part aren't privy to our business model. It is different from theirs, and required a different mode of thinking. Staffing at our company is determined by airframes, and airframes only. Picking up extended days will not, and does not effect staffing levels.

There is a large flaw in this method of thinking.

It's true that staffing is predicated on the number of airframes, 5 pilots per frame minimum. It was proven that they can't cover the schedule with that number without extended days thus bringing the realistic minimum higher than that. The minimum staffing becomes artificial driven by the number of pilots willing to extend. The more extenders, the closer to 5 per frame the company can staff.

The argument is moot anyway in that the majority of the voluntary extended days are in the GV where 7 day tours don't work. The company has the option to negotiate language that works for them but chooses not to for a multitude of reasons.