Picking up extra work with guys on the street

[BentOver]

So just when I thought Netjets had a strong union.

Turns out there has been over a thousand extra days of work picked up while there are guys on the street. This is for Jan 1st-Sep 30th....


IYO is this alot compared to what you all have seen at the majors when guys are on furlough? A handful I could see, but 1000+ seems excessive.

Trying to get a perspective from 121 guys. We have a 30+ year 121 guy (furloughed Netjets)who thinks this picking up of "extra work" is the worst he's seen...

thoughts?

Thanks

 

[Jack Mehoff]

The turd quota seems a bit high in the NJA pilot group.

 

[OurMoney1]

Thats not how you protect the guys on the street.

When one pilot takes a hardship all pilots should take a hardship. That means if one person on your seniority list is on the street you fly your schedule and thats it. Period.

You guys need to find out who the offenders are and pass their names around.

 

[titans10]

Thats not how you protect the guys on the street.

When one pilot takes a hardship all pilots should take a hardship. That means if one person on your seniority list is on the street you fly your schedule and thats it. Period.

You guys need to find out who the offenders are and pass their names around.

ALPA would say High Time flying does not effect staffing. What a @#@# statement. That was actually put out during the massive furloughs after Sept 11.

 

[freightdogfred]

It's a long standing tradition for ALPA pilots to eat their young. Lineup, or there will be none left for you. Call D Woerthless, he will explain it to you, he's somewhere in DC suckin on the govt. titty.

 

[Kalifornia]

It's a long standing tradition for ALPA pilots to eat their young. Lineup, or there will be none left for you. Call D Woerthless, he will explain it to you, he's somewhere in DC suckin on the govt. titty.

Hey, I give credit to the guys that challenge ALPA and try to make it better. But you do realize, that NetJets is not ALPA.

 

[ultrarunner]

So just when I thought Netjets had a strong union.

Turns out there has been over a thousand extra days of work picked up while there are guys on the street. This is for Jan 1st-Sep 30th....

Ok, so over a period of approximately 270 days, 2700 active pilots have picked up 1000 days.....


My math tells me that the pilot group, collectively, is picking up 3.x days per month.....[/QUOTE]

But at the end of the day, someone will always be willing to work your hours for more money......

 

[GuppyWN]

Ask Fubi about the Alaska pilots. There were literally hundreds of guys flying extra while they had furloughees.

Gup

 

[CA1900]

My math tells me that the pilot group, collectively, is picking up 3.x days per month.....

Uhhh... I think your math is way off. I won't get into the specific numbers on this public forum, but if you look at the total number of extended days divided into the total number of workdays, you'll find that number far lower than what you came up with.

I agree it's still too high, but for the vast majority of us, it's still at zero.

 

[wscrj]

Oh yes, Alaska has a bevy of stand-up folks more than willing to pick up open time with guys (still) on the street. They were so proud of their work ethic they got the company to remove the names from the computer making it (slightly) harder to figure out who these great men are....

Now, once everyone is back...playball. Until that day, well....

 

[GuppyWN]

Amen brother.

Gup

 

[LearLove]

Happened at my company also. Back in 2008 I was in the CLT crewroom and 2 AB guys were basically high-fiving about what they were picking up from open time and how many hours they got out of it. I pointed out to them that we just furloughed about 100 guys and I was 25 numbers from getting the ax myself. One shrugged his shoulders and walked away and the other looked at the time on his Rolex then signed in for his trip and walked out without picking up his head or looking at anyone else in the crewroom.

 

[Draginass]

A lot of APA pilots fly max time with thousands of fellow pilots on furlough. It's disgraceful, but there you have it.

 

[Hpilot]

Oh yes, Alaska has a bevy of stand-up folks more than willing to pick up open time with guys (still) on the street. They were so proud of their work ethic they got the company to remove the names from the computer making it (slightly) harder to figure out who these great men are....

Now, once everyone is back...playball. Until that day, well....

Yeah, a couple friends furloughed at Alaska(were) told me you've got a fair share of wonderful human beings. We've got a bunch at AWA, er I mean US Airways West. Several pilots suggested lowering line time to diminish furloughs and give furloughs part of the profit sharing, since the company was making money(but furloughing). There was an outcry from all the wonderful human beings. Hope they get what they deserve.

 

[freightdogfred]

Hey, I give credit to the guys that challenge ALPA and try to make it better. But you do realize, that NetJets is not ALPA.

Got it, Zippy. The originator of the thread wanted input from 121 guys.
But you do realize, that most 121 guys are ALPA

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

I shudder to think....

Ask Fubi about the Alaska pilots. There were literally hundreds of guys flying extra while they had furloughees.

Gup

Hey Gup. If we ever got into a furlough scenario (no company is 100% immune) I would bet our guys picking up any OT would be at the same level as any other carrier.
I would say 1 out of 3 captains I fly with are high time flyers for whatever reason. I recall reading on our form one captain even stated he would continue to pick up in the event of a furlough.
When our section 6 re-opens I will support any language to block OT in the event of a furlough.
I would have no problem pilots picking up from pilots or ELITT into a higher paying trip.
I hope we never have to worry about this scenario.

 

[ualdriver]

Every airline has their weak sisters. We have plenty of guys going above and beyond in order to "help out." Each and every one rationalizes it in their own, special way.

 

[waveflyer]

A lot of guys I fly with contradict themselves- they say, w/o a doubt, they would accept lower line totals to prevent a furlough- and I believe them- but then you have a whole lot who can't really afford not to- they set up way too much of their life on debt and obligation-
Then, of course there was capt d-bag publicly saying in '09 that we should furlough so his pairing and line values could be back up to normal- everybody's got their 10%- and every airline has their 1%.
It's a pretty shameful thing though, picking up with pilots furloughed-

 

[relief tube]

greed + you not liking your family/having no interests in life = working more than you have to for an airline.

It's why age 65 has f-ed this industry up too.

 

[gutshotdraw]

As with all things, there is WAY more to this story than the originator of this thread would have you believe.

 

[waveflyer]

As with all things, there is WAY more to this story than the originator of this thread would have you believe.

Enlighten us.

470 pilots on furlough

Who gave up jobs to come work there-
Who have families
Who have mortgages
Who are jobless in a seriously flat economy (ie: home depot's probably not an option)

Some things are grey, some are black and white.

Make your case, please.

 

[say again]

But at the end of the day, someone will always be willing to work your hours for more money......

And this is the sad fact of the industry today!! Brotherhood? YGTBSM. It's become a cut-throat industry.

 

[jonjuan]

Enlighten us.

470 pilots on furlough

Who gave up jobs to come work there-
Who have families
Who have mortgages
Who are jobless in a seriously flat economy (ie: home depot's probably not an option)

Some things are grey, some are black and white.

Make your case, please.

His case is that customers would leave if a certain group didn't say yes to overtime leading to even more furloughs.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Thanks for presuming to speak for me Juan. Where to begin?

At a time when NJASAP leadership is asking for, no, demanding "unity" from it's pilots, the union publishes a matrix of information it has never before published that can only serve to drive a bigger wedge between pilots of NJA and the pilots of the former NJI.

By the very nature of its operation, the long-range Gulfstream Global Large Cabin fleet has accrued more voluntary extended days than the other fleets combined. The simple economic fact is, extended crew days in order to complete a complicated international itinerary are cheaper than the alternative of swapping out a crew in Timbuktu on business class airline tickets. When you are extending two and sometimes three pilots for two or three days a couple of times a week on trips to Asia or Eastern Europe or beyond, the extended days stack up fast. The VAST majority of the extended days in the GLC are tied to international trips. And yes Juan, intentionally driving up operating costs to somehow "punish" the company and "stand up" for furloughed pilots will ultimately result in MORE furloughs.

Another point. NJASAP makes a continued and robust case against outsourcing to charter vendors because it costs seniority list jobs. If extended days will help prevent a sell-off, doesn't that protect seniority list jobs?

More pointedly, there is a HUGE number of pilots working the 18 day schedule at Netjets providing the company with 36 more pilot days per year than a 7-7 line holder. I would argue THAT choice presents a greater roadblock to pilot recalls than voluntary extended days. But I don't begrudge 18 day pilots any more than voluntary extenders because the contract provides for both options.

Finally, the sad fact is the vast majority of furloughed Netjets pilots will never return to the company. The fleet is shrinking, the business model is mature, and hopefully most, if not all, have located better employment elsewhere whether in or out of aviation. Under the BEST case scenario of future fleet size and attrition, recall is AT LEAST 5 years away.

I work the 7-7 and haven't flown an extended day in roughly 3 years. But at a time when we're supposed to be "unified" I find it peculiar that the UNION generates a document that stirs the busybodies to fling poo at their "brothers."

 

[waveflyer]

Is the 18 day schedule an option for each pilot or is there a limit and bid on in seniority order?

 

[gutshotdraw]

It is a seniority bid award and does have a pay premium. There is a maximum percentage of seat/fleet that can bid it but I don't know which fleets, if any, have hit the ceiling. In the GLC, it is actually harder to get OFF the 18 day than to get ON it.

 

[BentOver]

The 18 day can only be reduced by 10% per bid period I believe. It would take some time, if ever, to be able to ween everyone, or most, off it. And they can still force people onto it I believe.

as far as the GLC guys needing to extend to fulfill those Timbuktu crew swaps.....If there is some way to prove that an extended day WAS NOT voluntary, then I have no problem with that.

And further more, without the GLC extended days, there is still roughly 500 days that were voluntarily extended. Way too many.... Gutshot only assumed I was picking on the GLC guys. But then again if the shoe fits....... I've found that when someone is so quick to defend, he is most likely feeling he did something wrong (or in this case, his fellow GLC guys).

Not sure if you've(Gutshot) read the contract, 1.5.4(c) to be precise, but there is more than one reason for the scope language. Unless you've had blinders on this whole time, NJA CAN ABSOLUTELY sell-off as much as they want. Heck they can sell-off 100 days if they choose to. But everyday past 11 will result in some sort of recall. And that is directly proportional to the amount of sell-offs that occur.

In the end, changing the scope language is very bad. Both for the potentual for contract induced recalls, AND saving jobs currently still there.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The 18 day can only be reduced by 10% per bid period I believe. It would take some time, if ever, to be able to ween everyone, or most, off it. And they can still force people onto it I believe.

as far as the GLC guys needing to extend to fulfill those Timbuktu crew swaps.....If there is some way to prove that an extended day WAS NOT voluntary, then I have no problem with that.

And further more, without the GLC extended days, there is still roughly 500 days that were voluntarily extended. Way too many.... Gutshot only assumed I was picking on the GLC guys. But then again if the shoe fits....... I've found that when someone is so quick to defend, he is most likely feeling he did something wrong (or in this case, his fellow GLC guys).

Not sure if you've(Gutshot) read the contract, 1.5.4(c) to be precise, but there is more than one reason for the scope language. Unless you've had blinders on this whole time, NJA CAN ABSOLUTELY sell-off as much as they want. Heck they can sell-off 100 days if they choose to. But everyday past 11 will result in some sort of recall. And that is directly proportional to the amount of sell-offs that occur.

In the end, changing the scope language is very bad. Both for the potentual for contract induced recalls, AND saving jobs currently still there.

Extended days don't jeopardize scope. If anything, they protect it.

More importantly, WHY did your union leadership feel the need to publish such statistics?


And if I assumed you were picking on GLC guys, it's because we have been the whipping boys for every perceived inequity at Netjets for years.

 

[slaquer5]

Then, of course there was capt d-bag publicly saying in '09 that we should furlough so his pairing and line values could be back up to normal- everybody's got their 10%- and every airline has their 1%.
It's a pretty shameful thing though, picking up with pilots furloughed-

He even said that to the new guys he flew with , they would be the ones to get furloughed . He explaned to them that in the long run furloughs are good for everyone. Pathetic old mad that has no life and flys every day that he can. One more reason to show the age 65 pilots are very selfish. At least he will be gone in a couple of years.

 

[jonjuan]

By the very nature of its operation, the long-range Gulfstream Global Large Cabin fleet has accrued more voluntary extended days than the other fleets combined. The simple economic fact is, extended crew days in order to complete a complicated international itinerary are cheaper than the alternative of swapping out a crew in Timbuktu on business class airline tickets. When you are extending two and sometimes three pilots for two or three days a couple of times a week on trips to Asia or Eastern Europe or beyond, the extended days stack up fast. The VAST majority of the extended days in the GLC are tied to international trips. And yes Juan, intentionally driving up operating costs to somehow "punish" the company and "stand up" for furloughed pilots will ultimately result in MORE furloughs.

You DO know the cost of positioning crews internationally is directly passed along to the customer-no cost to the company. Please tell us you understand this. Go ahead and ask the bill dept. Knowing this, now how do you feel about volunteering for extended days?