PCL off the Runway in TVC--no injuries

[DiverDriver]

Another sound decision at Pinnacle....

How does that statement have anything to do with decision at Pinnacle? I don't work for them. It goes to show that what is reported by ATC is not always what you find at the bottom of the approach.

And someone else posted that BA at the time was reported as GOOD. How the heck can that be since the METARs reported 1/4 mile vis with snow and heavy snow. Sounds like these guys got lead down a bad road.

I have personal experience with TVC tower giving a bad BA report and then when I tried to correct it they tried to give an eroneous report to the following aircraft. I think we need to be looking at airport ops at TVC rather than the crew on this one.

Heck I just had to do my first ever go-around due to getting to minimums and not seeing a runway at PHL. Yah, they were reporting 2500 BKN and the converging 17 mins are about 600 AGL. As Bob Ueker said in "Major League" - "JUUUUST a bit outside."

 

[V-1]

How old was the braking action report? There's not a lot of traffic in or out of that airport at that time of night, and the tower used to close really early there...like 9 or 10 p.m.

Once again, good to hear no one was hurt. Best wishes for the crew as they work with investigators to resolve the questions.

 

[captain dad]

"I wanna be a cowboy baby."

- Kid Rock

 

[DCMartin]

6480 looks wrong, but your probably right. with that being said, if you refuse to fly every flight to a runway that isn't 10000feet long when there is a chance of snow and RW contaminant in the forecast the company may find that they don't need you around anymore. Its just one of those bummer incidents that most pilots look at and say, wow that could have been me.

You bring up a very good point. Whos gonna say no to dispatch.... Lets recap who has ran off a rwy in the last couple years: Pinnacle in MKE, Southwest in MDW, Skywest in CWA, Shuttle America in CLE, and now Pinnacle in TVC. 4 out of 5 of these incidents involved 1/4 +SN reported w/in the previous half hour and contaminated Rwy. Skywest involved standing water contamination.

Air carriers are not required to take into account whether the rwy is contaminated so that extra 15% is only required to be added to the DRY rwy Calc. SO that 6480 is too much, the number out of the AFM is 5635 at Ref + 5, 46000lbs and at SL cont w/ loose snow. With slush or Ice it would go up.

And you are right I would still most likely say yes to dispatch, cause it is legal....

 

[bertengineer]

Heck I just had to do my first ever go-around due to getting to minimums and not seeing a runway at PHL. Yah, they were reporting 2500 BKN and the converging 17 mins are about 600 AGL. As Bob Ueker said in "Major League" - "JUUUUST a bit outside."

6500 hours and FIRST EVER GO AROUND due to weather? Holy SH_T man...I had that at 1200 hours my first week flying the line at AirNet, single pilot in the BE-58 with ice hanging off of the wings

 

[Papps]

lol yeah i get the sarcasm, its fine to say no to dispatch I do it frequently, and have never gotten a call or carpet danced for it, but in the regionals in the winter you are going to be scheduled to fly to airports where the runways arent 3 miles long and the BA reports arent all that new.

You can't refuse to fly for 9 months straight and expect to keep your job (i realize thats not what your suggesting) so you do the best you can with the information that you have and try to CYA.

My point is that it doesnt take a cowboy to overrun, northwest and southwest have done it recently along with everyone else, all it takes is some bad information.

 

[bri5150]

Nevermind...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

A missed approach for weather is highly unlikely. Especially if most of your time is in Cat II or better equipment.

 

[filejw]

Guys a couple of notes from an old timer. First as I think back over the last 30 yrs I can remember that more than one DC9 has gone off the end of 27 in TVC. All with the pretty much same wx conditions.Second two items that were brought up previously on this thread, the time of the BA report and the tail wind.That 5 knot effective tail wind would had me headed to MBS and any BA report more than 15 mins old with heavy snow falling is useless.The rule I used when flying in that crap was On Speed, On the End and In the Middle.Oh ya a little luck helped too.

 

[BLing]

I just wish that people could learn to actually land the CRJ. I am sick of flying with captains that have years of experience in the airplane that float float float and float down the runway, then give it the old three point slam. This is true when I commute on other carriers as well.

I am not saying that this captain made a bad landing, but I'm pretty sure many guys before him have, which could have led to fatigued parts causing the gear to collapse.

 

[WildBlue]

The nosegear collapsed after the aircraft exited the runway.

The 15% safety margin is already built into the performance tables provided in PCL's CFM.

If Toolcrib is correct and any ice was on the runway, the lowest possible landing distance would be around 8000 feet. Just a guess but if there was ice, a lot more damage would have been done to the aircraft and it would have gone farther past the runway end. That is just a guess.

The real culprit here may have been the tailwind component. On the loose snow chart, you add 160 ft/kt of tailwind. An 8 knot tailwind would add 1280 feet to the distance. While 8 knots is within the aircraft limitation, if there was a tailwind of 8 kts, the runway would be about 700 feet short. This might also account for damage level.

Interesting speculation, but who knows? I guess that is why they conduct an investigation.

 

[Lear70]

I've been into TVC city MANY times in a PCL CRJ.

At MANY times at MANY different airports, IND, MKE, MBS, FNT, and too many other places to think of, the last couple thousand feet of runway doesn't always get treated and/or plowed and things can get dicey if you float just a bit too far with a tailwind and get into the really slick part.

Also, if the runway was icy, it wouldn't have done a BIT of damage to the aircraft until AFTER the aircraft exited the runway, assuming like you said that the nosegear collapsed AFTER they departed the paved surface.

I'd be very surprised if fatigue wasn't a contributing factor in the decision to land on a questionable surface with a tailwind along with the float this airplane has. How much you want to bet this was leg 4 or 5 after a 13+ hour duty day?

 

[WildBlue]

You may be on to something.

The pairing they were flying was a 3-day trip. This was their first day. Showtime is published as 0940 CDT with schedule duty out of 2306 EDT. Accident occurred at 0042 EDT. 14 hours of duty time. Leg number 5. OE with new FO on 3rd day of OE. BS braking action report. Heavy snow. You need a 7 and you roll snake eyes.

 

[Smarta$$]

Another sound decision at Pinnacle....

I think he was trying to say that it was discovered on touch down that it was not the center that was plowed!

tool.

 

[The Drizzle]

There's some big news coming from NASA in a few weeks on this. NASA aeronautical/human factors scientists have determined that you must have flown exactly 1337 hours - no more, no less - before you can successfully and safely fly a regional jet.

Amazing.

i know i'm tardy to the party, but that sh!t was funny.


btw you can bypass teh 1337 requirement with m4d h4x

 

[Rxflyer]

The story isn't that an airplane went off the runway or Joe Notime was the pilot, but that it's April 12 and there was a snow storm in Michigan severe enough to ruin breaking action. Screw Michigan, I need to move to Florida.

Snowstorm in MI in April ? That ain't news ! :laugh: Especially Northern MI !
(Note that I now reside in TN....)

 

[brnstrmr]

Quote:"I have personal experience with TVC tower giving a bad BA report and then when I tried to correct it they tried to give an eroneous report to the following aircraft. I think we need to be looking at airport ops at TVC rather than the crew on this one."
What are the chances of this actually happening?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Quote:"I have personal experience with TVC tower giving a bad BA report and then when I tried to correct it they tried to give an eroneous report to the following aircraft. I think we need to be looking at airport ops at TVC rather than the crew on this one."
What are the chances of this actually happening?

I think after LEX and some other accidents where the guys and gals on the ground were an issue, there might be more interest in ATC/airport.

Hopefully it won't be pilot error until proven innocent.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Let the people drive to TVC. What a dump.

No type IV and you drive yourself to the hotel...

 

[FrozenPilot]

Heck I just had to do my first ever go-around due to getting to minimums and not seeing a runway at PHL. Yah, they were reporting 2500 BKN and the converging 17 mins are about 600 AGL. As Bob Ueker said in "Major League" - "JUUUUST a bit outside."

Go arounds are good... unless its Mexicana in CAVU, right? :nuts: